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Jesus taught his Gospel before the cross.

Colt

Well-Known Member
(Mark 3:7–12; Luke 6:17–19)

23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24 News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed— and He healed them.

25 The large crowds that followed Him came from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.


Prior to the tragic rejection and cross, Jesus preached a positive Gospel which was sufficient to salvation. Faith in the Father and the responsibility that comes with sonship with God.

After the resurrection and ascension, a "new Gospel" evolved into a religion about Jesus. The kingdom of heaven ideal of Jesus was largely forgotten, lost and replaced with the institutional church.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Fair enough.

Where did the "Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70" come from? Note that the earlier reference suggests "Most scholars date it to just after 70 CE, when Titus (a Roman general and subsequently emperor) destroyed the temple".
If you follow the references on the Wiki page it will tell you where the evidence for these dates comes from
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The authors were people close to the events.
You know this how? Did Mark write the Gospel of Mark? Does it say that in the gospel itself? Matthew? John? How do we know who the actual authors were? And if we don't know, then how can we say they were close to the events? Luke was not a disciple, for instance, never met Jesus. Neither did Paul. So how do you conclude they were close the events?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
(Mark 3:7–12; Luke 6:17–19)

23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24 News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed— and He healed them.

25 The large crowds that followed Him came from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.


Prior to the tragic rejection and cross, Jesus preached a positive Gospel which was sufficient to salvation. Faith in the Father and the responsibility that comes with sonship with God.

After the resurrection and ascension, a "new Gospel" evolved into a religion about Jesus. The kingdom of heaven ideal of Jesus was largely forgotten, lost and replaced with the institutional church.

Hi!

Do you not think "the institutional church" (I assumes this means Catholicism?) teaches, "Faith in the Father and the responsibility that comes with sonship with God?"
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
After the resurrection and ascension, a "new Gospel" evolved into a religion about Jesus. The kingdom of heaven ideal of Jesus was largely forgotten, lost and replaced with the institutional church.

You are both right and wrong. There was an old saying, and maybe sill, by those who opposed the Church, or by extreme traditionalists, that Jesus preached the kingdom of God and out came the Catholic Church.

(Gaudium et spes) “The Church has but one sole purpose–that the Kingdom of God may come and the salvation of the human race may be accomplished” The church is “already” and “not yet” within the Reign of God. Insofar as it is “already” within God’s Reign, it is itself a mystery, or sacrament.
It is “not yet” within the Reign of God, it is a sinful church on pilgrimage through history, holy but always in need of penance, renewal, and reform.
There is the question as to whether the church was founded by Jesus or on Jesus.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
You know this how? Did Mark write the Gospel of Mark? Does it say that in the gospel itself? Matthew? John? How do we know who the actual authors were? And if we don't know, then how can we say they were close to the events? Luke was not a disciple, for instance, never met Jesus. Neither did Paul. So how do you conclude they were close the events?
Close in age, around the same time, not 600 years latter. Mark was 65-70+ CE. There are no notes left that he or the others Used. Luke relied on eye witnesses.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Hi!

Do you not think "the institutional church" (I assumes this means Catholicism?) teaches, "Faith in the Father and the responsibility that comes with sonship with God?"
Yes, but along with the institution comes institutional problems. The Kingdom as Jesus taught it was a spiritual fellowship of believers and the "king" as it were is the will of God in the hearts of the believer. It could have benefited ALL religions around the world. Jesus inaugurated it 200 years ago. The apostles were its ambassadors. Sadly but probably foreseen was the fact that the Apostles didn't remain true to the ideals of Jesus. Then Paul brought his own ideas into the religion that Paul founded, Christianity.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, but along with the institution comes institutional problems. The Kingdom as Jesus taught it was a spiritual fellowship of believers and the "king" as it were is the will of God in the hearts of the believer. It could have benefited ALL religions around the world. Jesus inaugurated it 200 years ago. The apostles were its ambassadors. Sadly but probably foreseen was the fact that the Apostles didn't remain true to the ideals of Jesus. Then Paul brought his own ideas into the religion that Paul founded, Christianity.

What are "the ideals of Jesus," to you?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
What are "the ideals of Jesus," to you?
The major ideal would be the preeminence of doing the will of God in all aspect our or lives. Having a personal relationship with God the Father that comes before all else as Jesus did in his own life. Self forgetfulness and service to others. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" was one of Jesus great pronouncements. Jesus used parables to illustrate the spirit of the Kingdom of Heaven.


Matthew 18:3
Verse Concepts
and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:23
Verse Concepts
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16:19
Verse Concepts
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Mark 4:26-29
And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.read more.

Matthew 13:44-46
“The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Matthew 13:31-43
He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”read more.


Matthew 13:47-52
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,read more.


Matthew 25:14-30

“For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.read more.


Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.

Matthew 20:1-16
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place.

Matthew 18:21-35
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

Luke 8:10
Verse Concepts
And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.

Matthew 19:14
Verse Concepts
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Mark 10:14
Verse Concepts
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Matthew 19:23-24
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:23
Verse Concepts
And Jesus, looking around, *said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”

Luke 18:29-30
And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Mark 4:30-34
And He said, “How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it? It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil, yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that the birds of the air can nest under its shade.
 
Last edited:

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The major ideal would be the preeminence of doing the will of God in all aspect our or lives. Having a personal relationship with God the Father that comes before all else as Jesus did in his own life. Self forgetfulness and service to others. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" was one of Jesus great pronouncements. Jesus used parables to illustrate the spirit of the Kingdom of Heaven.


Matthew 18:3
Verse Concepts
and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:23
Verse Concepts
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16:19
Verse Concepts
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Mark 4:26-29
And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.read more.

Matthew 13:44-46
“The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Matthew 13:31-43
He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”read more.


Matthew 13:47-52
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,read more.


Matthew 25:14-30

“For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.read more.


Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.

Matthew 20:1-16
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place.

Matthew 18:21-35
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

Luke 8:10
Verse Concepts
And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.

Matthew 19:14
Verse Concepts
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Mark 10:14
Verse Concepts
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Matthew 19:23-24
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:23
Verse Concepts
And Jesus, looking around, *said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”

Luke 18:29-30
And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Mark 4:30-34
And He said, “How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it? It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil, yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that the birds of the air can nest under its shade.

Ah okay. But those ideals are taught by Paul and in "institutional Christianity"/Catholicism, as well. :shrug:
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Ah okay. But those ideals are taught by Paul and in "institutional Christianity"/Catholicism, as well. :shrug:
True, but doctrine formation, creedal based exclusions, crusades, inquisitions, murders, pedophile protection, political comingling, Pagan ritualism, misogamy, Pope worship etc were the kind of negative issues that the institution of the church brought. But it wasn't the evil of the Christian church as much as it was the fact that it "replaced" the liberating, high ideals of Jesus. The Church re-Sanherdinised the Gospel.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
True, but doctrine formation, creedal based exclusions, crusades, inquisitions, murders, pedophile protection, political comingling, Pagan ritualism, misogamy, Pope worship etc were the kind of negative issues that the institution of the church brought. But it wasn't the evil of the Christian church as much as it was the fact that it "replaced" the liberating, high ideals of Jesus. The Church re-Sanherdinised the Gospel.

Your list of grievances is...half accurate.

I know few institutions that live up to their stated ideals, and often violate them spectacularly. Christianity, in every version I'm aware of, is certainly no exception, that's true.
 
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