Jesus' Sins

[Ryan2065]

Oh, for heaven's sake...to expand on what Scott meant (heehee) that isn't Roman Catholic doctrine, and whoever taught you that obviously has no idea what they're talking about. Jesus is without sin, according to RCC doctrine. This is a perfect example of why you shouldn't depend on something just one person says.

Did I say that only one person told me? This is a perfect example of when you shouldnt ASSUME. I can remember 5 different theology teachers telling me this out of the 12 theology teachers I have had. They probably all went to the same conference or something that told them that.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Maybe you heard what you WANTED to hear. I can think of no Catholic teaching nor any scripture that supports this. Perhaps you could supply some actual documentation for your contentions.

 

[Scuba Pete]

And why is everyone getting so angry eh?

You call my best friend a bigot, the man who doesn't see the color of a man's skin, and you expect me to just agree with your garbage? You have tried unsuccessfully to assassinate the character of the ONE MAN who taught us that we are ALL equal before God and you expect a pat on the back? You are way out of touch with reality my friend.

I tell you what though... you go through just one year without sinning and without having one bigoted moment and I will worship you instead. My guess is that you don't make it for an hour.

 

[michel]

You call my best friend a bigot, the man who doesn't see the color of a man's skin, and you expect me to just agree with your garbage? You have tried unsuccessfully to assassinate the character of the ONE MAN who taught us that we are ALL equal before God and you expect a pat on the back? You are way out of touch with reality my friend.

I tell you what though... you go through just one year without sinning and without having one bigoted moment and I will worship you instead. My guess is that you don't make it for an hour.

I don't know why you get so upset NetDoc - that is just allowing yourself to be led; I don't honestly think that an atheist has the remotest clue of the implication of his words. Despite his ignorance, we should still Love him, and show him by example..........

 

[Scuba Pete]

I love my kids, even when I am angry.

However, don't mistake my passion in defending the truth as being angry. It's merely a feint to draw attention away from the howling inconsistencies in his arguments.

 

[true blood]

I'm surprised that you are calling the Jesus a racist. After all, he did bring peace in tearing down the partition separating Jew and Gentile. And it was clear that God no longer held one person or group of persons in higher esteem than any other. As Peter observed, much to his amazement, at Cornelius' house, as recorded in Acts 10:34, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons". Jesus Christ had caused all people, Gentile and Jew, to be equal before God. Wasn't it by his sacrifice, Jesus brought about the tearing of the veil between the court of Israel and the Holy of Holies, and he also destroyed the temple's separation between Gentiles and Jews? Besides, not only were the Gentiles enmity to God but Israel also was enmity to Him. Both needs reconciled before God. Actually it's wrong for me to use the word "both" because there is no more separation. There is no more Jew and no more Gentile. Heck, there is no longer male or female. Go figure that one out.

 

[michel]

I'm surprised that you are calling the Jesus a racist. After all, he did bring peace in tearing down the partition separating Jew and Gentile. And it was clear that God no longer held one person or group of persons in higher esteem than any other. As Peter observed, much to his amazement, at Cornelius' house, as recorded in Acts 10:34, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons". Jesus Christ had caused all people, Gentile and Jew, to be equal before God. Wasn't it by his sacrifice, Jesus brought about the tearing of the veil between the court of Israel and the Holy of Holies, and he also destroyed the temple's separation between Gentiles and Jews? Besides, not only were the Gentiles enmity to God but Israel also was enmity to Him. Both needs reconciled before God.

What on Earth are you talking about ? - where did anyone call Jesus a racist - please point me to that statement.:areyoucra

 

[true blood]

What on Earth are you talking about ? - where did anyone call Jesus a racist - please point me to that statement.:areyoucra

The very first poster.

 

[Ryan2065]

You call my best friend a bigot, the man who doesn't see the color of a man's skin, and you expect me to just agree with your garbage? You have tried unsuccessfully to assassinate the character of the ONE MAN who taught us that we are ALL equal before God and you expect a pat on the back? You are way out of touch with reality my friend.

I tell you what though... you go through just one year without sinning and without having one bigoted moment and I will worship you instead. My guess is that you don't make it for an hour.

The reason I asked why people were getting so angry is because you were getting angry and no longer debating, you were argueing. DeepShadow is the only one here who actually debated the racist comment and debated it quite successfully. Here is the origional statement that apparently made so many people angry...

Here Jesus refuses to heal someone because they are not of his faith and even refers to them as "dogs". Note, Jesus did end up healing the girl after the woman refered to herself as a dog and asked for a scrap from the table. This shows that Jesus did care about race.

First off, no matter how much "spin" you say I put on this NetDoc, the fact remains that I presented both sides of the story. If you had actually read what I said, the two reasons why I stated Jesus was argueable a racist was the fact that he a) called the person a dog, and b) refused to heal them at first. The way to debate this is to show me that neither of these are racist. DeepShadow did this when they showed that in that time Jesus actually referred to the woman as a little dog and that was a good thing back then. The second part still needs to be debated. I'll give you a hint on how to debate this, show me a time where a Jewish person asked for healing and did not recieve it the first time, or show me a time where a Gentile asked for healing and got it right away. I looked, I could not find any specific references to that.

And please don't think these ideas are unfounded. If you had a doctor who was white and healed 19 white people, but made 1 black person beg before they could be healed, you would be the first to call that doctor racist.

 

[Sabio]

Right, he tested her faith right? Lets look at this scripture passage... This passage does mention her race, so one would have to conclude that it played some part in what went on in this passage. So lets look at all of Jesus' healing miracles...

Jesus Clenses a Leper... Matthew 8:2, Mark 1:40, Luke 5:12 - No mention of race, Jesus doesn't test the lepers faith and doesn't say no to the leper at all. Gives the leper exactly what he wants.

Jesus heals a centurion's Servant... Matthew 8:5, Luke 7:1 - No mention of race, Jesus gives the man exactly what he wants. Doesn't deny him right away.

Jesus heals Simon's mother-in-law... Matthew 8:14, Mark 1:30, Luke 4:38 - No mention of race, Jesus gives Simon exactly what he wants. Doesn't first deny him.

Jesus healed the sick at evening... Matthew 8:16, Mark 1:32, Luke 4:40 - Jesus immediatly "cast out the demons" and did not question anyone or deny anyone at first. No mention of race.

Jesus healed a Paralytic... Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:3, Luke 5:18 - Jesus heals a paralyzed man on a cot. No mention of race, didn't deny him at all.

Ok, this is getting tedius, here is a list of the healings Jesus did... http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html Look it up if you want, I did. There are 20 counts of Jesus healing people, and only one time does it mention race, it mentions a race that Jesus' people did not like, and Jesus denied that person healing at first. Oh, but he was just testing them, then why did he only test the person of a different race? It would be like standing 19 white people in a line for a job and then oly testing the 1 black person in the line and saying it was not racist.

I will admit that when Jesus sent the demons into the herd of swine that was a stretch to show that he was racist. But look at it this way.
1. Jesus could have sent the demons into 1 swine and spared the herd, not all 2000 swine.
2. Swine were considered "unclean" and Jesus knew this. This means that no one who was of his belief would own swine.

Just seems like a waste of swine. And I am sure the farmer who owned those 2000 swine sure loved to lose all his swine, even if he was a Gentile.

Ryan,

Are you stating it as fact that Jesus did all of these miracles?

Sabio

 

[Sabio]

The reason I asked why people were getting so angry is because you were getting angry and no longer debating, you were argueing. DeepShadow is the only one here who actually debated the racist comment and debated it quite successfully. Here is the origional statement that apparently made so many people angry...
First off, no matter how much "spin" you say I put on this NetDoc, the fact remains that I presented both sides of the story. If you had actually read what I said, the two reasons why I stated Jesus was argueable a racist was the fact that he a) called the person a dog, and b) refused to heal them at first. The way to debate this is to show me that neither of these are racist. DeepShadow did this when they showed that in that time Jesus actually referred to the woman as a little dog and that was a good thing back then. The second part still needs to be debated. I'll give you a hint on how to debate this, show me a time where a Jewish person asked for healing and did not recieve it the first time, or show me a time where a Gentile asked for healing and got it right away. I looked, I could not find any specific references to that.

And please don't think these ideas are unfounded. If you had a doctor who was white and healed 19 white people, but made 1 black person beg before they could be healed, you would be the first to call that doctor racist.

I hear teenagers saying "what up dog" all the time, I don't think of them as racists...

Sabio

 

[Sabio]

3. Jesus could argueably be a racist against Gentiles. ..

Ryan,

Here is an example of Jesus lack of racism...

Sabio


John 4

A Samaritan Woman Meets Her Messiah

1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 4 But He needed to go through Samaria.
5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”
Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

 

[DeepShadow]

The second part still needs to be debated. I'll give you a hint on how to debate this, show me a time where a Jewish person asked for healing and did not recieve it the first time, or show me a time where a Gentile asked for healing and got it right away. I looked, I could not find any specific references to that.

Does this qualify? From Matthew 8:

5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be bhealed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Not only does Jesus heal the servant of a centurion (a soldier for the state that most Jews at the time considered oppressive), but he commends him for his faith and suggests he will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven before the children of the kingdom (i.e. the House of Israel)

 

[DreamQuickBook]

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

wow... I forgot these verses. Do you believe that Salvation is of the Jews?

 

[Sabio]

wow... I forgot these verses. Do you believe that Salvation is of the Jews?

Yes, of the Jews and Gentiles, you forgot verses 14-16

14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”

 

[DeepShadow]

I just realized you already commented on this passage, Ryan, but apparently you missed the fact that his was a Roman centurion. It's an easy mistake to make, becaus ethe author seems to take it for granted and doesn't point it out heavily. However, it seems apparent that the man was a non-Jew, because why else would there be the commentary of his faith exceeding that of the house of Israel?

 

[DeepShadow]

wow... I forgot these verses. Do you believe that Salvation is of the Jews?

I sure do. To avoid derailing this debate, if you have any further comments, let's move it ot another thread, or send me an IM.

 

[Ryan2065]

Sabio and DeepShadow have show scripture that shows that Jesus was not a racist. Now, we have one more question to address.

When Jesus refused to heal the woman, was this because of race? And if he refused to heal her because she was a different race than Jesus, does that mean that it was a racist act? And if it was a racist act, does that mean it was a sin? Are racist acts considered sins?

The reason I want to bring these statements up is for one simple fact. The bible only tells us of Jesus' miracles, not of the times he disagrees to do miracles. There could be other times that Jesus refused to do miracles and race could have played a huge role in who he decided to heal and who he did not decide to heal. This is pure speculation and can not be proved true or false (well I don't think it can be proved false, anyone care to try?)

 

[Scuba Pete]

the fact remains that I presented both sides of the story.

That is a fable, not a fact. Asking us when did Jesus stop beating Mary would have been more sincere. You have only cast aspersions with NOTHING but verses taken out of context. You DELIBERATELY left off the two last verses where Jesus healed the lady in question. Why? You have an axe to grind, and that sort of agenda should be exposed whenever possible. You call this "anger" when incredulity is far closer to the the truth. I have called you on your lies and distortions and you call it anger: how convenient. Instead of admitting your error, you cast more aspersions, but on me this time. Don't play me a fool and expect me to accept your arrogance.

 

[Scuba Pete]

When Jesus refused to heal the woman,

He didn't refuse to heal ANYONE. She was healed was she not? Did he say "I refuse to heal you!"??? No. Please stop lying about what happened here. Thanks in advance.