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Jesus' Sins

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Ryan2065, Aug 5, 2005.

  1. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    So this kind of was brought up in another thread and I wanted to get some views on this. When I was growing up I was told by my Roman Catholic teachers that Jesus was human and that he only committed one sin and that this was proof that he was human. Apparently if he lived never sinning this would not be proof that he was human. The sin my teachers were speaking of was this... (Note: This is described in all 4 gospes but I will only quote one =) )
    Matthew 21:12-13
    First off my question is was I taught right and does the Catholic church recognize this as a sin? Because, you know, there are numerous places in the bible were Jesus is mentioned as a person without sin. Secondly, I believe that Jesus committed a few more sins.

    1. In that time you were not to work on the Sabbath, yet he did. Today this does not seem like a big sin, but in those days it was.

    2. In that time you were not to eat without washing your hands. Jesus sure did, a few times. Again, doesn't seem like that big of a sin...

    3. Jesus could argueably be a racist against Gentiles. Look at Matthew 15:22-26
    Here Jesus refuses to heal someone because they are not of his faith and even refers to them as "dogs". Note, Jesus did end up healing the girl after the woman refered to herself as a dog and asked for a scrap from the table. This shows that Jesus did care about race. Here is another time where Jesus shows that he does not like Gentiles... Mark 5:
    This does not look openly racist, but Jesus did destroy a whole herd of 2000 swine. Because his people were not allowed to eat swine by God's law (which he was fully aware of) he just destroyed 2000 Gentile swine. He could have easily cast the demons out into one swine, but instead he puts them into 2000 swine. Just seems like Jesus wasn't as sinless as the bible makes him out to be...
     
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  2. DreamQuickBook

    DreamQuickBook Active Member

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    Great Post. Frubles for you!
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    If I ever meet your teachers in a dark alley... there will be some sin going on.:banghead3
     
  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    heheh - sorry, I just had to laugh - it is either that or cry!:)
     
  5. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    These were all mosaic laws. Jesus was higher than the law and came to bring an end to Mosaic law and a begining of higher law. How could he do that unless he did things against Mosaic law? He wasn't sinning because, with his coming, he brought an end to the law which those rules were a part of.

    QUOTE=Ryan2065]3. Jesus could argueably be a racist against Gentiles. Look at Matthew 15:22-26
    Here Jesus refuses to heal someone because they are not of his faith and even refers to them as "dogs". Note, Jesus did end up healing the girl after the woman refered to herself as a dog and asked for a scrap from the table. This shows that Jesus did care about race. [/QUOTE] He didn't say that stuff about dogs because he thought of the person as being lower than dogs because he was racists. He did it to test her faith and to show his followers an imprtant lesson.

    I don't see what the sin is there.
     
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  6. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    What a GROSS misrepresentation of what happened. Are you a Republican working for Bush as a Spin Doctor?

    In your reference to Matthew 15, lets look at the FINAL VERSES in that passage:

    Matthew 15: 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
    28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. NIV

    He commends the woman for her great faith and you call him a racist? Did you spend some time with the Swift Boat Veterans and are now trying to foster their style of spin? Jesus no more called her a dog than he called you and me a dog. He was speaking sarcastically, but that was obviously lost on you. That, or you twisted it on purpose.

    For the record, Jesus was sinless. He destroyed the misconceptions that men have about God and you label him a sinner. I am surprised you didn't bring up the fact that he turned water into wine.

    Matthew 11:16 "To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
    17 " 'We played the flute for you,
    and you did not dance;
    we sang a dirge
    and you did not mourn.' 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."
    NIV

    It will be interesting to see your next spin.
     
  7. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    Right, he tested her faith right? Lets look at this scripture passage... This passage does mention her race, so one would have to conclude that it played some part in what went on in this passage. So lets look at all of Jesus' healing miracles...

    Jesus Clenses a Leper... Matthew 8:2, Mark 1:40, Luke 5:12 - No mention of race, Jesus doesn't test the lepers faith and doesn't say no to the leper at all. Gives the leper exactly what he wants.

    Jesus heals a centurion's Servant... Matthew 8:5, Luke 7:1 - No mention of race, Jesus gives the man exactly what he wants. Doesn't deny him right away.

    Jesus heals Simon's mother-in-law... Matthew 8:14, Mark 1:30, Luke 4:38 - No mention of race, Jesus gives Simon exactly what he wants. Doesn't first deny him.

    Jesus healed the sick at evening... Matthew 8:16, Mark 1:32, Luke 4:40 - Jesus immediatly "cast out the demons" and did not question anyone or deny anyone at first. No mention of race.

    Jesus healed a Paralytic... Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:3, Luke 5:18 - Jesus heals a paralyzed man on a cot. No mention of race, didn't deny him at all.

    Ok, this is getting tedius, here is a list of the healings Jesus did... http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html Look it up if you want, I did. There are 20 counts of Jesus healing people, and only one time does it mention race, it mentions a race that Jesus' people did not like, and Jesus denied that person healing at first. Oh, but he was just testing them, then why did he only test the person of a different race? It would be like standing 19 white people in a line for a job and then oly testing the 1 black person in the line and saying it was not racist.

    I will admit that when Jesus sent the demons into the herd of swine that was a stretch to show that he was racist. But look at it this way.
    1. Jesus could have sent the demons into 1 swine and spared the herd, not all 2000 swine.
    2. Swine were considered "unclean" and Jesus knew this. This means that no one who was of his belief would own swine.

    Just seems like a waste of swine. And I am sure the farmer who owned those 2000 swine sure loved to lose all his swine, even if he was a Gentile.
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Jesus healed as he saw faith... check it out.

    BTW, trying to disprove the truth is ALWAYS tedious. Exposing tripe is always fun. I am having fun.

    Now how about them thar swine? What were jews doing with a herd of swine in the first place? Huh? Huh? The area was Jewish. Oh, I see... Jesus (a jew) is also now biased against Jews. Let's look at the passage.

    Mark 5:1 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.


    6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8 For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

    9 Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

    "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

    11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13 He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

    14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region. 18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed. NIV

    So here was this man that was TERRORIZING this area and NO ONE could bind him, not even with a chain. Jesus comes along and rehabilitates the man so that he can live at home and AMAZES all of the people. But somehow, all you can worry about is a herd of swine? So what price do you put on sanity? On a life? It's obviously NOT worth a herd of pigs. Oh wait... you have it down to ONE PIG. Somehow, I don't think Legion would agree with you. I surely don't. BTW, whether it was one spirit or a thousand, I am gonna be impressed with someone who can do that.
     
  9. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    The footnote in the bible I read says that because it was a herd of swine one can infer they were Gentiles. This means they were not Jews.

    As you say, there was a man terrorizing many many people. Jesus cured him by killing 2000 swine that belonged to a Gentile (non-Jew). Jesus sure is nice to them non-jews. =)

    So you agree that Jesus only wanted to heal Jews? Is this not racist?
     
  10. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    Hey NetDoc, you're saying I put a spin on things? Look at your own spin!

    I am looking at the online NIV passage that I assume you went to in order to get this passage. Mine and yours match up exactly except for one part (besides the nice sentence you bolded). At the end of verse 17 there is a paragraph break. Now why would one not include the paragraph break? It surely cannot be because it highlights on the sentence that says "Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region." And on top of that you bold the sentence that says "And the people were amazed" making it appear that the people liked what Jesus had done to the man and to the swine. Sure, I'm the one who uses spin... =)
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I would find a Bible with different footnotes then.

    That is exactly OPPOSITE of what I said. Are you SURE you don't work for the Republican Spin network? I think you should read the Bible from now on and assume it means precisely the opposite of what you think it says. You might get a tad closer to the truth this way.
     
  12. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    It sure seems that way. Jesus healed all Jews unquestioningly. The second a non-jew came to be healed, even though they called Jesus the son of god, Jesus said no. It was only after she asked 3 times that he actually granted her request.
    Your response to this was that Jesus healed as he saw faith. Does this mean he unquestioningly saw faith in the Jews but not the Gentiles, even though the Gentile called him the son of god? This seems like he was basing his judgement on race and not faith.
     
  13. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Again, you should look for a Bible with different footnotes, or at least read the text more than you seem to do now.

    Consider his home town:

    Matthew 13:53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55 "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57 And they took offense at him.
    But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

    58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith. NIV

    Consider his discussion with the Samaritan Woman:

    John 4:1 The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3 When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.


    4 Now he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

    7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

    9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)

    10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

    11 "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"

    13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

    15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

    16 He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."

    17 "I have no husband," she replied.

    Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

    19 "Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

    21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

    25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

    26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." The Disciples Rejoin Jesus

    27 Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?"
    28 Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29 "Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?" 30 They came out of the town and made their way toward him. NIV

    Not only did Jesus carry on a NORMAL conversation with a samaritan, but with a woman to boot... the disciples were SURPRISED, bubba.

    BTW, did you happen to catch the miracle he performed for her? She sure did and it changed her life.

    Anyone who calls Jesus a bigot has an agenda that has nothing to do with the reality of the man. Just don't expect those of us who have been touched by the master's hand to sit idly by while you peddle your tripe about the man who taught the world to LOVE.
     
  14. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Ryan,

    I have read these passages over and over and you are making no sense. Where does it say that Jesus only wanted to heal Jews? Please cut and paste the exact passage since I haven't seen it in any you've posted so far.
     
  15. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

    23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

    26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.

    27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.

    28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

    From The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles
    Further, Hugh Nibley went on to point out that the term "children's bread" referred to a sweetbread--a dessert. Anyone who knows dogs will tell you that giving them cake will make them very sick. Jesus' calling to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" meant that he had to be careful who he taught (his teaching being the bread of life). If they were not ready, they might pervert his teachings with their own philosophies or worse, idolatry. He would not be able to follow up with this woman and make sure she was not becoming spiritually "sick" because of the "children's bread" he had given her.
     
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  16. Prima

    Prima Well-Known Member

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    Oh, for heaven's sake...to expand on what Scott meant (heehee) that isn't Roman Catholic doctrine, and whoever taught you that obviously has no idea what they're talking about. Jesus is without sin, according to RCC doctrine. This is a perfect example of why you shouldn't depend on something just one person says.

    Well, as I said...no. But neither should you, I think. I don't see why Jesus being upset because someone was desecrating a holy place is a sin.

    Does anyone else agree with you - do you have any reputable sources or writings that agree with you? (out of curiosity)

    Is it a sin not to follow the letter of the law? Jesus repeatedly talked about the law. What is legal and what is right have never matched up perfectly.

    Is it a sin at all? Even a little sin? In this times, I'm not to run around barefoot, but I do anyway. I really don't see why you consider this a sin in the first place.

    Well, NetDoc already addressed this one, but here is my personal take...Jesus never healed anyone who only 'kinda sorta' wanted to be healed. People with great faith who went through difficulties to be healed were always - whether immediately or afterwards - healed. Despite all the people clamoring for healing, think who Jesus healed - those who traveled a long way, who swallowed their pride, who dragged themselves on the ground, pushed through the crowd, or lowered themselves through the roof to get to him.
     
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  17. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    References for both of these would be nice. I'll need to check a few things before I say for sure, but I beleive both of these were offenses not against the laws of God (i.e. a sin) but against the laws of the Scribes and Pharisees. These were "hedge-laws" built around the actual law of Moses, and they had (for example) their own definitions of what was considered "working on the sabbath." These laws were sometimes mind-boggling:

    1) If you walked out of your house with a pin in your clothes on the Sabbath, you were "sinning," according to the hedge-laws, especially if you were a tailor by trade. According to the pharisees, "working on the Sabbath" included carrying tools--even ones as small as a needle or pin--regardless of whether you did any work.

    2) You were limited as to what kinds of knots you could tie and untie on the Sabbath. Specifically, you were not allowed to use both hands to untie knots on the Sabbath, because that was considered "work."

    3) If you have hens, be careful not to lay any of their eggs near a fire on the Sabbath, lest it accidentally start to cook in its shell. Cooking is "work," even when it's accidental!

    4) Speaking of hens, here's a doozy:
    Q: If my hen lays an egg on the Sabbath, is that considered "work?" Have I broken the Law of Moses?
    A: It depends upon how many hens you have (!!!). If you have only one, then it is a pet, not a house industry, so the laying was an accident. If you have two or more, you must be selling the eggs, ergo this was work, and you have broken the law.

    Now, Jesus was accused of "working" on the Sabbath because he healed a man. He even deliberately asked the Pharisees if it was lawful to "do good on the Sabbath" before he healed the man. His point was that they had created such a thick hedge around the law that the point--doing good--was obscured. Thus, he was breaking the hedge laws but upholding the laws of God, which is to say, not sinning.

    As for the washing-thing, IIRC that was a custom, not a part of the Mosaic or any other law. If you have a reference, please cite it.
     
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  18. Prima

    Prima Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I believe you are correct that that is where the confusion came in - and is still coming in! God's laws aren't necessarily the lawmaker's laws :D
     
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  19. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Excuse me. I am a staunch republican, and I'm on your side. Did you read my post? Essentially what you have been saying. Hmm. Maybe republicans aren't all bad:D
     
  20. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    What was the miracle that she did to him?

    And why is everyone getting so angry eh? You're saying that it's hard to see that he is a bit racist? The fact remains that of the 20 healing miracles in the bible, only one person had to ask him three times to be healed, and that was the woman of a different race.

    So this shows that those who had lack of faith ASKED him to heal them. Oh wait... people with lack of faith do not ask Jesus to heal them. This statement proves nothing.
     
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