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Jesus says, I Am He

Repox

Truth Seeker
Trinity Sunday is the only day in our church calendar where we are called first to consider a teaching of the church rather than a teaching of Jesus. The word “Trinity” never appears in the Bible. We wouldn’t expect it to. It derived from early Christian efforts to make sense of what they read in Scripture and throughout their own experience of the divine. As the early movement of Christ followers organized and became a Church – and with that as teaching and theological identity formed – there was a growing sense that God existed not as singular and static, but in multiple ways.

Like in the first chapters of Genesis. Almost every line is astounding and inspiring, but in the midst of the story of God’s good creation is a statement that seems to expand who we understand God to be and interrupt the monotheism we see throughout the Hebrew Bible. In vv. 26-27 of chapter 1 we hear, “Let us create in our image…” YHWH – God – twice uses the plural pronoun, precisely in this moment of creating humankind in the divine image.

It’s the same image of plurality and relationship that we hear as the risen Christ prepares to depart to the Father, but first commissions his disciples – and all of us who have followed him since – in the name of God the Father, Son and Spirit. Baptize in this way. Go forth in ministry and mission with this image.

In all of their attempts to explain or internalize, some of them came to embrace it with a certain image. A word that came from Greek theatre. Perichoresis. Peri – “around” from where we get perimeter. And Choresis – from where we get the word choreography, dance. God is like a circular dance, they came to understand. God is the flow and the swirling between these three. God is a constant movement of love flowing in an around itself, then finally outward to draw all people in.

It’s there from the very beginning. God swirling above the waters and creating humankind. This same dynamic, loving God moving in the lives of every one of us, and sending us out in that same movement, empowered by the spirit to call others into the flow. Sometimes we forget the dance in our refusal to serve God and our denial of the community God offers. We’ve been stumbling and tripping over ourselves since the Garden itself. Yet, through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, we are always called back in. As Father Rohr has said, “God is not a dancer. God is the dance itself.”

The theologian Karl Rahner once produced a classic study called The Trinity, in which he says that “Christians are, in their practical life, almost mere monotheists.’” That is, if Christianity ended up dropping the doctrine of the Trinity, he suggested, the day-to-day lives of Christians would remain largely unchanged. Because so often our lives bear no evidence of this community we see in our God in three persons. We don’t operate with this sense of interrelatedness that testifies to the creative God who binds us all together in love.

“The Trinity is a mystery, not a puzzle…” the theologian Justo Gonzalez has said, “You try to solve the puzzle, but you stand in awe of the mystery.”


“The Dance of God: A Sermon on Trinity Sunday” A Sermon by Alan Sherouse | First Baptist Church Greensboro
In my opinion, you almost nailed it. As you probably know, I propose God to be a duality. So, if y0u eliminate the holy spirit, and make the son equal to the father, you would have a duality.
Because God is eternal, it is difficult to believe he would have a son. If the Trinity is eternal, the son must be eternal, and we know it can't be because, as per definition, a son cannot be eternal. You see the logical inconsistency? At what point, or supernation episode, was the son created? Was it before, or after angels were created? See, how ridiculous the Trinity is? Oh, we must value logic, otherwise, it is irrational, or without understanding. Language is based on logical certainties, not irrational propositions. I believe the problem for founding fathers began when they defined Jesus as the son of God. If they had defined Jesus as God, and God as a duality, we would have no Trinity, and, therefore, more certainty for theological propositions, as well as theological debates. If you read the history of the gospels, you'll find an abundancy of problems, from defining Jesus as a wise or sage man to many years later defining him as the son of God.

Yes, I know. I can't prove God is a duality. However, no one can prove there is a son, who, by definition, cannot be eternal. So, we have a Trinity which defies logic, or standard definition of words. Regarding the holy spirit. From all accounts, it is a residual category, whereby anything the church deems to be "holy" becomes subject to the "holy spirit." A category for incidental church activity.

Based on logic and the definition of words, there is no Trinity. I need to mention, however, I had vision about God's duality. In my mind, there were two pearls of equal size attached to one another. It was a profound dream about God. God as an eternal being, and as a duality, is in perfect harmony. In heaven, there are two Gods in a sphere surrounded by twelve angels in a worship circle.

It makes more sense that God is a duality. I can't imagine God before he created angels alone in heaven. Why wouldn't there be a duality? So, God created angels in order for them to participate in holy interactions. You can continue to belief in the Trinity, but you must pervert the English language to conform to such a belief.
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
When we reply to an idea, it's a retort, unless one can defend it as otherwise. We may or may not have scientific insights, but if its logical, it may be realistic, or it may be reasonable. Whatever it may be, it must have a predicate, or a subject for review. If you drop a hammer on glass, the glass breaks. You can't fix the glass with a feather. Nor can you fix it with a contrary idea. Words may be feathers, unless they have substance, or concrete ideas. The idea of God is concrete when the idea cannot be refuted. To refute God, one must have proof, and proof can be scientific, for the existence of the universe without God. After God created the universe, he didn't have to show up and prove he did it. He assumed there would be intelligent people on earth to prove he did it. So, for all atheists, where is the proof God didn't do it.

So, later, after God created the universe, he created paradise, which he and his angels enjoyed. I use the word God when I mean "God is a Duality." Then, God selected his holy people and attempted to establish a holy order on earth. Then, after everything went astray, God came into the world as Jesus. Then, again, everything went astray. Now, without God in our world, we are stumbling along hoping it will work out.

Poor God, nothing works out. The key for understanding God's dilemma, is "obedience." God requires "obedience to his commandments." It is a freewill issue. Why did I post all of this? I just like to post what I know, even though it may be an exercise in futility. I will, however, forgo my theological argument and revert back to "basic logic" to refute false ideas. Without logic, we have irrational rambles about almost anything, and an open door to fantasy land.

Religious arguments go back to the reason we are having them. Satan rebelled in heaven, God created the universe and imprisoned Satan inside, and, then humans came into being. Assuming a chain reaction, Satan started it! Let's get the culprit. Oh, God did that. The universe is Satan's prison. What a revolting development this is! Now, we're stuck in this world, Satan's prison, not knowing the ending.
Logic. I am a human only. I speak a human.language. I live equally a human. Human is my beginning human is my.end. I live I die human.

Human human human.

I am a being I am told by man human you too are human...wo man.

I am so.indoctrinated by you I know you better than yourself.

Science all states you are not as human possessed you. In your mind in your designs in your daily moment by moment thinking controlling machines.

All thoughts in life of science as machines.

Focus. Your focus.

You said my brother is the destroyer. Yet you all look.at your brother.

In my life we are brother and sister. I look directly at you knowing you are wrong.

I didn't bother challenging your beliefs for nothing.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Logic. I am a human only. I speak a human.language. I live equally a human. Human is my beginning human is my.end. I live I die human.

Human human human.

I am a being I am told by man human you too are human...wo man.

I am so.indoctrinated by you I know you better than yourself.

Science all states you are not as human possessed you. In your mind in your designs in your daily moment by moment thinking controlling machines.

All thoughts in life of science as machines.

Focus. Your focus.

You said my brother is the destroyer. Yet you all look.at your brother.

In my life we are brother and sister. I look directly at you knowing you are wrong.

I didn't bother challenging your beliefs for nothing.
Well, a semi-coherent statement. I don't indoctrinate, and I am not a machine. Like y0u, I make freewill decisions. Attributing words to a machine, allows us to avoid responsibility for those words.
If all beings were machine functioning automatons, Satan, or all evil creatures would not be evil. We would say they were poorly designed by the "creator." Oh, who created the creator? Discussion gets messy when no one takes responsibility.

If I am wrong, by what criteria do you condemn me? You are wrong for confusing everyone with unfathomable language.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Well, a semi-coherent statement. I don't indoctrinate, and I am not a machine. Like y0u, I make freewill decisions. Attributing words to a machine, allows us to avoid responsibility for those words.
If all beings were machine functioning automatons, Satan, or all evil creatures would not be evil. We would say they were poorly designed by the "creator." Oh, who created the creator? Discussion gets messy when no one takes responsibility.

If I am wrong, by what criteria do you condemn me? You are wrong for confusing everyone with unfathomable language.

Natural words first were about observation.
Irradiated brains second changed ability to communicate words.

A long time ago science did not exist.

An innocent human man equal in life wanted what he wasn't.

To own and be powerful. What powers would anti eradicate his being.

The biggest mistake of a man human life is self condemnation.

Mother said father was her life equal mutual. Truly innocent loving mutual.

The baby to adult man evolved into his egotism by wisdom of man death. As father's man life died his conscious awareness as a man changed.

Is not an excuse for being life's tormented torturer who sacrificed family by choice.

Where is the moment of spiritual truth for equality?

Men brothers own it only. Why you wield the idea of it yet never allow its success.

Part of the torture you claim family should endure.

All owned by man who power plays his powerful self.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have been told many times that I am of the "essence" of my maternal grandfather, but that doesn't mean we were exactly one and the same but more that our personalities were so similar. Thus, "essence" does not mean nor imply "exact".
Relevantly here, it means you're not your maternal grandfather and he isn't you ─ that's to say, the number of individuals here is two. With Father, Jesus and the Ghost, either they have separate wills and are three in number, or they have only one will and are one person with three masks.
The early Church fathers well knew that Jesus had said things about God to show that they were not "exactly" the same, such as when the end of times would be.
What they found inconvenient to take into account were the outright denials ─ by each of the Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John ─ that he was God, and the failure of any of them ever to claim to be God. As a small sample ─

PAUL: 1 Corinthian 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

MARK 12:29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; [...] 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;"

MATTHEW 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

LUKE 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

JOHN 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”'
When he referred to God being his "Father", that logically cannot imply that they're exactly the same.
No, they're not the same ─ thus, for example, only one of them is God (see above).
The Greek philosophers had a major impact on the composition of the NT writings in Koine Greek, especially Aristotle who designed the concept of "essence".
Just so. But that was because they were looking for ways to elevate Jesus to God status without opening themselves to the charge of polytheism.

The result, which as I said must either be monotheism ─ such that Jesus was indeed God and all the quotes above (and the many others) were deliberate and persistent lies and deceits ─ or polytheism, whereby the Father is one god (arguably the chief god), Jesus is another god, and the Ghost is a third god.

The churches acknowledge this problem by attempting to hide it by labeling the Trinity "a mystery in the strict sense". A "mystery in the strict sense" "cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" (their words, not mine). And if you unpack them, you'll agree that they say "a mystery in the strict sense" is the same thing as "a nonsense".
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The problem is church fathers were hung up with pagan gods. They never considered God's duality. It was easier for them to ignore Jesus, a man with ambiguities, and find Jesus, the son of God, a perfect theological solution, one compatible leadership bias. Which pagan god, and in which way should it be presented? So, they decided on a politically correct solution. It became a happy family. Dad has his son close by, and mother becomes the holy spirit to keep peace. It's a perfect family solution. The problem is it doesn't exist. Oh, maybe one of those flying saucers up high in the sky is the solution. Why not! We can ask a perfect family from outer space to replace all of those pagan gods, including unproductive pagan rituals.

The best reference for this problem of misinterpretation is found in Burton L. Mack's book, The Lost Gospel Q, in this scholarly book, Mack documents the transition of Jesus sayings and narratives from Jesus a sage or wise leader to Jesus the son of God. In short, we have scholarly information which allows one to conclude the Christian story about Jesus did not derive primarily from literal translations of gospel stories, but from a figurative interpretation by NT authors over a period of several decades. In short, if Jesus was the son of God, then why didn't NT authors find it in early gospels, and why did they propose narrative stories not found in those gospels. The most convincing evidence for false narratives is the evolution of those stories when Jesus wasn't the son of God to stories when Jesus became the son of God. In his scholarly book, Mack illustrates how Jesus stories changed over a period of about forty-five years from a wise or sage man to the son of God. If Jesus was truly the son of God, why wasn't it discovered in original books or writings about Jesus?
See my post above.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Revelation 11 about the two witnesses is about God (Duality) giving testimony to his chosen people. In Rev. 11, which I claim to be the story about God (two witnesses), we have direct evidence for God's duality. It is in the last few verses of Rev. 11. "Then Gods' temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant." (Rev. 11:19). We know there are two angels facing one another on the top of the "ark of the covenant." Those two angels represent God's duality. The ark is a literal interpretation for God's duality. Therefore, it would be appropriate for it to be mentioned in relationship to the "two witnesses" (God) in Rev. 11. It can't get any better than that for direct evidence!

One reason why gospel authors, and those other authors who preceded them, got it wrong, is, in my opinion, because they couldn't handle the duality idea for Jesus (God). Nothing has changed, today it is the same. Humans, except for myself, refuse to accept the idea of God's duality.

Imagine humans in heaven! There would be condemnation, they wouldn't like God as a duality. They would say, where is Jesus the son of God. Then, when the son doesn't show up, they would say it isn't so. Oh, no, we can't do that. The problem is the two Gods in a sphere will never change. What happens to humans who don't like God as a duality? Do they file a petition to the supreme court of heaven? We can only guess.
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
A human adult father theist is first. Man and men. Group agreement human.

His own man son is not sperm in his balls. Says consciousness human. The theist. Life he says is sex sin owner. Sexual conception gives life it's inherited sin.

Biologist medical teaching. Science first did not own a science thesis a human to life existing future...human sex did. Taught advice life is a female mystery.

O ovary ova bio cell female is life continuance honour mother baby son said the human sacrificer father self of both lifes in satanic nuclear science causes.

Fallout irradiation burning to death by gas alight sciences light constant. Man wanted machines reaction not life to own light.

Jehovah teaching why the son baby of man was life sacrificed with his human mother.

The human man father caused it.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
His story father man hypocrite scientist. Science building demolished. Church healing built.

Said I won't have sex myself until my promise to fulfill the human prophecy occurs. I will be the father to all.

Humans biological future health gain 2012 end attack. Baby life healing.

Didn't occur.

Men broke their non sexual conduct. Reason. Irradiation of mind reintroduced.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
There is no historical evidence for Joseph and Mary. What you find are what early church leaders wrote without historic affirmation. They, like NT authors, made up stories. Again, if you do serious research, you'll find prior gospels conflicting with NT gospels. Mostly, you don't find Jesus stories (narratives) in prior gospels.

Then, there is Jesus Before the Gospels by Bart D. Ehrman. His book explains how the four gospels evolved, from rumors and storytelling to gospel writing. None of the gospel authors were eyewitnesses, knew eyewitnesses, where Jewish, lived near Galilee where Jesus preached, spoke Hebrew, wrote Hebrew, or had known a follower of Jesus. Yet, they wrote as if they knew Jesus and all of his disciples. Ehrman's book is an excellent presentation of academic studies from psychology, anthropology, and sociology about memory, nature of group memories, and oral traditions. The four gospels were written (first by Mark and ending with John) from about 65 to 110 C.E. by men who gathered information from earlier gospels, rumors, oral traditions, and local Christian groups, not from eyewitnesses or other firsthand sources. By the time stories got to them, facts, and, most notably, narratives about Jesus had changed in so many different ways as to seriously question the real story about Jesus.


What if Jesus was God, and not the son of God? Most of the NT would be false; it would be a conglomeration of misguided and irrelevant verses. Assuming there is no son of God, the Trinity would also be false. It would also explain why those early gospels quoted Jesus making references to the "kingdom of God." Unless proven otherwise, the NT gospels are in error. Jesus was God, and God is a duality.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Revelation 11 about the two witnesses is about God (Duality) giving testimony to his chosen people. In Rev. 11, which I claim to be the story about God (two witnesses), we have direct evidence for God's duality. It is in the last few verses of Rev. 11. "Then Gods' temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant." (Rev. 11:19). We know there are two angels facing one another on the top of the "ark of the covenant." Those two angels represent God's duality. The ark is a literal interpretation for God's duality. Therefore, it would be appropriate for it to be mentioned in relationship to the "two witnesses" (God) in Rev. 11. It can't get any better than that for direct evidence!
O stone ark is first O gods natural body of flesh as rock.

It's two witnesses. Space womb. Heavens.

Three said the law owner Rome advisor no man is God. Do not give God a name. Especially a female unholy mother name. Destruction by maths.

Kept all evidence and knew our science brother would try to destroy life on earth again.

Possessed mind review. Causes.

Said to me by memory. I attended the Catholic church aligned reason. Interactive advice. As a child. What memory is involved interactive history.

I was baptised and honoured in life. Correct human review. Holy water over my head.

Said as the order I once owned a Secret brotherhood who murdered the life threatened. By satanic theists.

I then murdered them. As we owned no other choice.

Teaching. Memories.

We could have had Galileo killed for treason against life. Instead we jailed him as evidence of proof. Knowing historic is always sought. Looking back advice.

Lie gaol equals the science man answer. Why we imprisoned him. Sun nuclear theists. For future evidence.

Why we kept a non decomposing human body. Proof science had changed earths heavens killing microbe bacterias good energy in biology in water. Non decomposition a chemical cause.

We kept the shroud proving life was unnaturally irradiated by the heavens conditions.

So that science would not claim it was scientific.

1000 year Satan star return. Fallout.

Reason science also activated fall out.

Activated into burning as a cold holy star by earth sciences overheating leaving hot metals in space. That ignite the wandering star direct earth cause.

We kept all evidence for proof as he always lies.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
A human adult father theist is first. Man and men. Group agreement human.

His own man son is not sperm in his balls. Says consciousness human. The theist. Life he says is sex sin owner. Sexual conception gives life it's inherited sin.

Biologist medical teaching. Science first did not own a science thesis a human to life existing future...human sex did. Taught advice life is a female mystery.

O ovary ova bio cell female is life continuance honour mother baby son said the human sacrificer father self of both lifes in satanic nuclear science causes.

Fallout irradiation burning to death by gas alight sciences light constant. Man wanted machines reaction not life to own light.

Jehovah teaching why the son baby of man was life sacrificed with his human mother.

The human man father caused it.
Imagine humans in heaven! There would be condemnation, they wouldn't like God as a duality. They would say, where is Jesus the son of God. Then, when the son doesn't show up, they would say it isn't so. Oh, no, we can't do that. The problem is the two Gods in a sphere will never change. What happens to humans who don't like God as a duality? Do they file a petition to the supreme court of heaven? We can only guess.

Maybe, they would seek a linguistic expert to inform them of what was being said.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Imagine humans in heaven! There would be condemnation, they wouldn't like God as a duality. They would say, where is Jesus the son of God. Then, when the son doesn't show up, they would say it isn't so. Oh, no, we can't do that. The problem is the two Gods in a sphere will never change. What happens to humans who don't like God as a duality? Do they file a petition to the supreme court of heaven? We can only guess.

Maybe, they would seek a linguistic expert to inform them of what was being said.
All humans who live argue live in the heavens.

Above us is only sky.

Humans argue. Humans live alive argue

Theists displaced their owned human position biology lives in the heavens first.

Condemn the advice no Jesus existed.

Yet they have the Jesus experience.

When I was brain irradiated my language changed. I was speaking in a strange tongue. I talked to my sister she only said stop it.

I might have been speaking an old language. I don't know I didn't trust the church to ask it's advice.

The heavens mass is planet O God owned.

Jesus was an event within the heavens also only heavens owned.

Science by human choice converted rock not God. Hence the jailed entombed reasoning portion is fake.

As mother space womb pressure owned gas heavens not earths pressure.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
O stone ark is first O gods natural body of flesh as rock.

It's two witnesses. Space womb. Heavens.

Three said the law owner Rome advisor no man is God. Do not give God a name. Especially a female unholy mother name. Destruction by maths.

Kept all evidence and knew our science brother would try to destroy life on earth again.

Possessed mind review. Causes.

Said to me by memory. I attended the Catholic church aligned reason. Interactive advice. As a child. What memory is involved interactive history.

I was baptised and honoured in life. Correct human review. Holy water over my head.

Said as the order I once owned a Secret brotherhood who murdered the life threatened. By satanic theists.

I then murdered them. As we owned no other choice.

Teaching. Memories.

We could have had Galileo killed for treason against life. Instead we jailed him as evidence of proof. Knowing historic is always sought. Looking back advice.

Lie gaol equals the science man answer. Why we imprisoned him. Sun nuclear theists. For future evidence.

Why we kept a non decomposing human body. Proof science had changed earths heavens killing microbe bacterias good energy in biology in water. Non decomposition a chemical cause.

We kept the shroud proving life was unnaturally irradiated by the heavens conditions.

So that science would not claim it was scientific.

1000 year Satan star return. Fallout.

Reason science also activated fall out.

Activated into burning as a cold holy star by earth sciences overheating leaving hot metals in space. That ignite the wandering star direct earth cause.

We kept all evidence for proof as he always lies.

What if Jesus was God, and not the son of God? Most of the NT would be false; it would be a conglomeration of misguided and irrelevant verses. Assuming there is no son of God, the Trinity would also be false. It would also explain why those early gospels quoted Jesus making references to the "kingdom of God." Unless proven otherwise, the NT gospels are in error. Jesus was God, and God is a duality.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I was taught by your man theist heaven memories of men in science.

Who said I said the name God O circulating mass heavens.
The theme O maths. Out of a body mass ∆ the nose point volcano O opened.

Spurted it's spirit O from God into space womb.

Immaculate sex said a man theist.

Not sex in other words.

So you say to men why did you compare just a man's life to science terms,?

So you could not lie man brother.

Knowing your creationist is human sin sex.

Correct advice

No says a theist I want to be a spirit first.

Well youre not. You are a biological human mainly water not a gas in heavens first.

So you argue because of what you wanted.

Wisdom to make God earth totally disappear

You said if earth was just all heavens no mass you would no longer own physical form either.

Geez you were proven wrong.

So one word implied.

Heavens is a mass no other separation theoried was allowed.

The mass by conditions circulated cooling protection in the heavens above us.

Not on the ground as fallout Phi.

God was in one holy place only. Above us. Cooling.

Mass in the great deep gas spirit on its space face is cold clear instant light sacrificed clear... water also clear face also as holy God.

Life's protector the spirit of the heavens.

M A S S. Mother space womb rode the beast. Holy heavens veils.

Coat of colours mantle heavens.
Body of heavens mass immaculate birthed first. Clear.

Cold clear gas is first in space. Then sacrifice second.

Holy mothers birth of lights life.

Immaculate for both.

Jesus was fallout only.

Space womb stopped the fall scientific taught otherwise we would all be burnt to death the teaching.

Evidence patterns burnt converted into stones mass.

Why Jesus is not God not the son of man.

Was gods heavens spirit body lost into extra sacrifice.

As brothers of men scientist caused it just as told.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
You also said as space opening emptiness by consuming energy formed a particle.

The theist pretending you are a God put earths heavens as the burning energy thesis in space cooling with a UFO cold radiation particle science caused itself a separate thesis.

History all human science causes only not natural history.

Not comparing the two theories as different reasonings.

Yet Stephen Haw King did. He said you were going to try burning us all to death in pretence your heavens as your experiments as your machine owned god as a particle.

In our heavens only. Bio life is not a machine...but I want the machine to live by a held constant like life did.

First of all we die we end. Not a fixed constant.

Want said I don't want the channelled resourcing to end. Not even yet channelling.

Lied everywhere you look claiming you are the God that created. Two direct owned lies...life is not a constant. Particle formed first is history in space only.

Just a human lying.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The churches acknowledge this problem by attempting to hide it by labeling the Trinity "a mystery in the strict sense". A "mystery in the strict sense" "cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" (their words, not mine). And if you unpack them, you'll agree that they say "a mystery in the strict sense" is the same thing as "a nonsense".
Believe in what you want to, I guess, but you're continuing to ignore the ramification of how "essence" can be and is applied within the Catholic tradition.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Believe in what you want to, I guess, but you're continuing to ignore the ramification of how "essence" can be and is applied within the Catholic tradition.
I understand the idea of 'essence' / 'substance', and I think it's untenable as a description of reality.

And the Trinity notion is not only incoherent as it stands, but as I pointed out, acknowledged by the churches to be so.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And the Trinity notion is not only incoherent as it stands, but as I pointed out, acknowledged by the churches to be so
The issue of the "Mystery of the Trinity" as said within the CC deals with that this is not something us mortals cannot fully understand. However, I cannot speak for other denominations. Thus, personally I don't lose any sleep over this.
 
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