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Featured Jesus says, I Am He

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Teritos, Mar 3, 2021.

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  1. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    John 18:4-8
    Jesus said to them: Who are you looking for? They answered him, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus said to them: I Am He. Now when he said to them, I Am He, they drew back and fell to the ground. Then he asked them again, Who are you looking for? But they said: Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus answered: I told you that I Am He.

    Isaiah 43:11-13
    I, I am Yahweh, and beside me there is no savior. I have proclaimed and saved, and there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses, says Yahweh, and I am God. Yes, always I Am He; and there is none that saves out of my hand. Who can stop me?
    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Teritos, Mar 3, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Not once did Jesus identify himself as Yahweh. Not once did God identify his son as his equal.

    What is the context?

    "Jesus said to them: Who are you looking for? They answered him, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus said to them: I Am He. Now when he said to them, I Am He, they drew back and fell to the ground. Then he asked them again, Who are you looking for? But they said: Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus answered: I told you that I Am He.

    Why did they fall to the ground when he identified himself as the one they had come to arrest. Who knows what lies the religious leaders had told them about him? Perhaps they were stunned that he came forward so readily, seeing that he was unarmed? This was an armed mob. Were they thinking that his miraculous powers were going to zap them into oblivion? When Peter stepped forward and cut of the ear of the High Priest's servant, Jesus rebuked him and healed the man. So when they realized that he was not going to resist arrest, they took him into custody.
    Look at the context....."I am he" is Jesus saying "I am the one you are looking for".......good grief. :facepalm:
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I guess that depends on one's viewpoint:

    John 5:18
    Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    They thought he said he was equal

    John 17:5KJ21
    And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
    Isaiah 42:8\King James Version 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,

    God said He doesn't give his glory to another and Jesus said he had the glory of God-that sound pretty equal to me

    Paul understood that too in Phil 2
     
  4. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    exodus 33: 20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”
    how many fell over dead because they looked into Jesus' eyes ? no one ?? not even one ? hummm
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes it does.....the ones who fused Jesus and his Father into one god, did so over a long period of time and through many controversies. The first Christians did not believe in a triune God because they were all Jewish, and placing any god above Yahweh or even on equal footing with him, was blasphemy....a breach of the First Commandment.

    But did Jesus say that he was equal to God?.....are you taking the word of those who were trying to pin an accusation of blasphemy on him? They were trying to do away with him.....but the accusation failed. Claiming to be the son of God was not committing blasphemy, as Jesus himself acknowledged....

    John 10:31-36...(NASB)
    " The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

    No admission of being God there even though he had opportunity to make it known, if it was so.

    Just because he was a glorious spirit being in heaven, doesn't make him God.
    In context, what was Jesus saying...?
    John 17:1-5....
    "Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

    What was Jesus speaking about? He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You" ...and he said..."This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." This was a prayer of Jesus to his Father....how does one part of God pray to an equal part of himself?
    Jesus glorified his Father on earth....how did he do that?...by doing all that his Father sent him to do. He glorified his Father and now he was asking his Father to restore his glory as a spirit being on his return to heaven....a place he has occupied with his Father from "the beginning"......but the beginning of what?

    Unfortunate translation that...."the LORD" is not a name....it is a title, and the Jews in their original Hebrew could see that God's name was יְהֹוָ֖ה (Yahweh.....Jehovah.)

    "I am יְהֹוָ֖ה (Yahweh) that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images.
    חאֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה ה֣וּא שְׁמִ֑י וּכְבוֹדִי֙ לְאַחֵ֣ר לֹֽא־אֶתֵּ֔ן וּתְהִלָּתִ֖י לַפְּסִילִֽים:
    (Tanakh)
    Jesus was not asking for God's glory.....but to be given back the glory that he had alongside his Father in heaven before his earthly mission. All spirit beings are glorious.

    Its amazing to me what you see when you want to see it....

    Take that scripture apart and you will see that it means the very opposite of what you think it does....
    Philippians 2:5-11...
    "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

    Jesus existed in God's "form"....what is God's form? "God is a spirit" (John 4:24). This means that Jesus was a spirit being before being sent to earth on his mission. And equality with God was NOT something he wanted to grasp.

    He "became obedient to the point of death"...to whom was he "obedient"? To whom is God obedient?

    "God highly exalted him and gave him a name that above every name"....How does God exalt an equal part of his "Almighty" self, and then give that part of himself a name that is above what he already has? (Psalm 83:18)

    Why is the confession of Jesus' as "Lord" (another word for Master, not God) "to the glory of God the Father"?
    If he was God then he could take that glory for himself.....but he never does.
     
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  6. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    That's interesting, because sometimes we think what people mean when they say something. And we could actually say back to them, "You said this!" But sometimes we're wrong, we only thought they said what we think they said in the interpretation.[/QUOTE]
     
  7. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    So to say that God was his Father would make him equal? I will say it was a broad statement, because to be the Son of God is a very sacred position.
     
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  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hello KenS, hope you’re well.
    Because they said it?
    Reminds me of what else they said, at John 8:41....“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested [to Jesus]. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

    They claimed the same thing. Does that make them equal to God?
     
  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    John 9:9...
    Now we apparently have the blind guy saying he was God.
     
  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @Teritos , are you just a “hit-and-run” type poster? Seems so. Sad.

    I’m through with it.
     
  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I'm looking a little closer at John 17:5 there. Why would the Son ask to be glorified with his Father's own self if he was equal to his Father constantly? (Or wasn't he?)
     
  12. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    In order to understand this, it is necessary to recognize that salvation comes by means of Jesus, who was given authority by his Father. We know that because, fortunately for us, Jesus said so. The Bible says he had the Father's authority and approval. Otherwise there would be no salvation. So yes, Jehovah is the only one that provides the means for salvation. Now then the question is: what is salvation?
     
    #12 YoursTrue, Mar 3, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
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  13. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I don't think so. The belief wasn't "quantified" or "made into a statement of belief" until later to prevent heresy, but it was written down by the very books we read from

    There are two problems that you have presented here.

    1) The Jews understood what he said in John 5. You can't erase what they understood in John 5. They explicitly said what they understood in John 5
    2) You then "jumped" to John 10 as if it was connected when it was a different context and application. Here Jesus was talking about authority to do miracles, not who he was.

    As if they would believe differently? He already said who He was the first time. He isn't out to please us or isn't under the dictates of what "we" want him to say.

    Angel: "Call him Imanuel, God with us"... seems like they had a different understanding

    Why is it wrong to say "I am the Son of God?"

    That, Deeje, is your interpretation and with great liberty. Not to mention what The Word was made flesh He no longer had the God attributes as Paul said.

    Your interpretation is wrong for a very simple reason. If he glorified the Father by doing what His Father sent him to do, He would have said, "Now glorify me now for what I have accomplished", but He didn't say that. He said "glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." Which means He shared the glory of position BEFORE He accomplished what He did on earth.

    Titles are names and names are Titles. Spirit beings may be glorious but they don't "share" God's glory. And the interpretation is correct -- a good translation. I have the title of Dad, husband, father, brother... these are names given to me because of who I am.

    Unfortunately, we can't just take one scripture and make a doctrine out of it.

    1. In Hebrews it was written that Jesus was not an angel
    2. Being in the form of God is not equality with God. Man was formed in His image and in His likeness.... but we weren't equal to God
    3. It is understood by the multiplicity of declarations that 2 Samuel 22:47 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation." And yet Jesus is the rock of our salvation. The implications are obvious.
     
  14. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I don't think so. The belief wasn't "quantified" or "made into a statement of belief" until later to prevent heresy, but it was written down by the very books we read from

    There are two problems that you have presented here.

    1) The Jews understood what he said in John 5. You can't erase what they understood in John 5. They explicitly said what they understood in John 5
    2) You then "jumped" to John 10 as if it was connected when it was a different context and application. Here Jesus was talking about authority to do miracles, not who he was. As an all wisdom master in debate he moved the issue from "I and the Father are one" - to authority to do miracles.

    As if they would believe differently? He already said who He was the first time. He isn't out to please us or isn't under the dictates of what "we" want him to say.

    Angel: "Call him Imanuel, God with us"... seems like they had a different understanding

    Exodus 3, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me ‘What is His name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” God replies to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.'” God has said that His own name, His personal name, is “I AM.”

    John 8:56-58. “Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad.” “You are not yet 50 years old,” they said to Him, “and you have seen Abraham?” “I tell you the truth,” Jesus announced, “before Abraham was, I AM!” and then they wanted to stone him. The reason is quite clear

    Why is it wrong to say "I am the Son of God?"

    That, Deeje, is your interpretation and with great liberty. Not to mention what The Word was made flesh He no longer had the God attributes as Paul said.

    Your interpretation is wrong for a very simple reason. If he glorified the Father by doing what His Father sent him to do, He would have said, "Now glorify me now for what I have accomplished", but He didn't say that. He said "glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." Which means He shared the glory of position BEFORE He accomplished what He did on earth.

    Titles are names and names are Titles. Spirit beings may be glorious but they don't "share" God's glory. And the interpretation is correct -- a good translation. I have the title of Dad, husband, father, brother... these are names given to me because of who I am.

    Unfortunately, we can't just take one scripture and make a doctrine out of it.

    1. In Hebrews it was written that Jesus was not an angel
    2. Being in the form of God is not equality with God. Man was formed in His image and in His likeness.... but we weren't equal to God
    3. We are to judge angels and not visa versa
     
    #14 KenS, Mar 4, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  15. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Yet the Jews understood the language and intent even if we don't
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Because when He manifested in the flesh, He left His glory with the rest of the Godhead so that He could be 100% man.
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I think this really helps in understanding what Jesus said. The context, as you noted, isn't that God was the Father of mankind but rather Jesus was making himself "equal" to God. From Hebrew to Hebrew, I think they understood quite clearly what He meant.
     
  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Some (not all) were upset because he called God his Father plus more.. like saying he was existing before Abraham was alive. Now that statement alone says a lot. About who Jesus was saying he was. So here's a little question-- when Abraham was alive, do you think the angels were also alive?
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    As far as "not all".... who are you talking about? Yes, he called God his Father, called himself God, said God and Him were one, It is written that He was involved in "all" creation and that "nothing" was created without him.

    Angels existed before mankind.. Of course, the Godhead existed before the angles.
     
  20. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    So - when Jesus said he existed before Abraham, do you think the angels also saw Abraham on the earth? You seem to say yes, the angels were also existing (alive) when Abraham was on the earth. When Jesus said he was one with God, he didn't mean he was God. He also said the Father GAVE HIM authority, didn't he? He also said the Father is greater than he is. So how can Jesus be God equal to the Father if he said these things?
    John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM."
    Here's a question for you -- why do you think some translations have I AM in capital letters, while others do not?
     
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