BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
I have.
We see "Son of God" as a title--an honorific, if you like--, not as a literal description, as "God neither begets nor is begotten."
Peace,
Bruce
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Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but throug
- Thread starter John Martin
- Start date
I have.
We see "Son of God" as a title--an honorific, if you like--, not as a literal description, as "God neither begets nor is begotten."
Peace,
Bruce
This is basically exactly how I feel.
My question was more or less rhetorical.
Nice reply. **jazz claps**
What do you mean this isn't Christianity in it's 'purest sense' ?
I'm interested to hear you impressions.
If I might comment about the rest of what you've said?
I could be mistaken, but perhaps you've misread what the point of Theosis is.
To say it doesn't incorporate The Way, to me, seems like a gross misunderstanding.
I think that this practice mostly if not entirely is based on incorporating The Way.
This is by no means just following the letter of this 'law', but rather bringing The Way as entirely as one can into one's being.
As a side bar:
Do you have an understanding of what 'sin' is in Eastern Orthodoxy?
If not, if might be something worth reading about.
:namaste
SageTree
InChrist
Free4ever
Maybe Lucifer would be glad to write the fifth gospel with the next step you feel is needed, telling everyone (again) how to really understand Gods words, reach godhood and attain their higher self, Christ-consciousness. The only problem is this didnt work out to well for humanity in the beginning so I doubt it is going to work out any better now, especially when Jesus Christ Himself Personally soon returns to rule the nations as the King of Kings and Lords of Lords (Rev. 19:15-16).
"Heresy is an infection in the Body of Christ. By definition, heresy is an opinion or belief that contradicts established religious TRUTH. Heresy is not just error; its anti-truth! And like an infection in the human body, heresy always affects ones spiritual health (as well as emotional, mental, and sometimes physical health). So, heresy must be addressed. It cannot be ignored. The medical treatment for all heresy is found in the New Testament!
The infection in Colosse afflicted the believers there regarding their view of the identity and deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. False teachers taught that Jesus was not the Lord, just a lord. They were teaching them that faith in Jesus was not enough for them to be spiritual. They needed to add other experiences to the mix. This is the root error of many cults today. The place that Christ holds in any religious teaching determines whether it is true or falsehealthy food or heresy. The Colossians were infected with heresy.
Paul wrote the letter of Colossians to contradict this infection. In Colossians, we find through Paul the greatest declaration of Christs deity and sufficiency found in Scripture. What Paul wrote then seems written expressly for our own day when so many teachers and groups are trying to rob Jesus Christ of his deity and sufficiency for our salvation through grace alone and our acceptance to God apart from works.
The emphases of these false teachers are still with us today. The first is higher knowledge (Gnosticism). The second is the observance of laws to win Gods love (legalism). The third is the belief that beings other than Christ must mediate between people and God (mysticism). The fourth is the practice of abstaining from things to earn merit with God (asceticism). (Constables Notes on Colossians, p. 36)"
Excerpt from: Introduction: ABCs of Colossians | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
[youtube]CSe38dzJYkY[/youtube]
Monty Python - Spanish Inquisition Torture Scene - YouTube
Monty Python - Spanish Inquisition Torture Scene - YouTube
It is? Who is it who sets himself up as judge?
riest:
InChrist
Free4ever
God is the only Judge and His word speaks His mind concerning His Son, Jesus Christ.It is? Who is it who sets himself up as judge?
The Catholic Church is a religious/political organization and the inquisitions which it perpetuated were not sanctioned or motivated by the scriptures, but by their own political agenda and lust for power.
John Martin
Active Member
InChrist,
Thank you for your post. I do respect your views. For me the real heresy of Christianity is to change the good news of Jesus into bad news. Jesus told to everyone 'you are the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Christianity has made everyone into sinners. Jesus came to break down the wall of division and create one God, one creation and one humanity but Christians are doing the opposite. St. Paul says in Ephesians that Christ came to proclaim peace and he himself is peace. How did he do that? He did it by breaking down the wall of division and creating one human kind in the place of two(Jews and Gentiles at that time) thus brought peace in the world.
In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free man, neither male nor female. All are one Christ. Christ unites everyone. Devil divides. Devil is diabolis, which means who divides, who builds walls, who fragments the Truth.
Heresy is to reduce universal teaching of Christ into fragmentary truths. It reflects in the existence of thousands of Christian denominations in the world and hundreds of them mushrooming in every year.
Heresy is to reduce inclusive Christ into exclusive Christ. We Christians need to grow into Christ.
Jesus said ' I am the light of the world and you are the light of the world'. We have exaggerated the first one and subjugated the second one. Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and life' as a possibility to everyone. Christians have made it 'Jesus is the way, the truth and the life' and closed that possibility to everyone.
We, Christians think that we are doing great service to Christ by presenting his truth in an exclusive way but in fact we are doing great disservice to him. We are transforming a spiritual liberator into a spiritual oppressor, announcer of good news into spiritual colonizer. 'I am the light of the world and you are the light of the world' constitute
the good news of Christ. These two statements are two sides of the same coin. This is the fullness of the Truth of Christ. Emphasizing one and neglecting the other is telling the half-truth. Heresy is to believe in the half-truth and preaching half-truth. Half-truth is more dangerous than a lie. 'If you are in Christ, you are new creation' sways St. Paul. To be in Christ like transcending the earth's hemisphere and see one earth. All the divisions of continents and nationalities are man-made and artificial. They may have functional value but not essential value. It is only those we absolutize their boundaries have expansionist ambitions from which comes violence( religious persecutions and inquisitions, religious wars etc.) We, Christians, need to grow into Christ, into the fullness of the Truth of Christ. We need to discover universal Christ. This is the real service we, Christians, can do to Christ. We need to have great courage and humility to accept this challenge to day.
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Who is trying to rob Jesus of his divinity? Have you heard John Martin, or myself do this? If so, please point to it. If not, then why did you cite this irrelevant conservative propaganda?
BTW, I don't believe anyone is saved by works. But I do believe "By their fruits you shall know them", and those fruits are manifest in attitudes and actions, not in "correct thinking", which is itself a form of salvation by works, InChrist.
I doubt the author knows what he's talking about here.
Not one of this is being espoused by anyone in this thread. Why do you cite them? Why do you believe they are relevant on your crusade for pure doctrines?
Peace is not known through doctrines.
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InChrist
Free4ever
Thank you for your thoughts, but I believe they are in contradiction to the scriptures. I respect your right to contradict the scriptures if that is what you choose to do, but the scriptures call false teachings heresy.
Jesus was speaking to His disciples and those who followed Him when He spoke of them being salt and the light. ( And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying: Matthew 5:1-2) Those who have faith in Jesus Christ and and listen to His words have His light. He was not telling the Pharisees they were salt or light, He was not telling those who worshipped Roman gods they were salt and light, He was not telling those who practiced divination they were salt because He was speaking only to those who followed Him.
You are correct that Jesus Christ brings peace and unity to... everyone who belongs to Him, Jew, Greek, free, slave, men, women, but that unity is in Christ. Those who reject Jesus Christ have no unity and peace with Him, each other or peace and reconciliation with God.
Christianity has not made everyone into sinners. Everyone does a fine job of sinning all on their own. The scriptures simply point out this reality which humans like to ignore. If you think that humans do not sin and do need the Savior Jesus Christ who came into this world to save sinners, then you have a different gospel than the one declared in the Bible.
John Martin
Active Member
It is? Who is it who sets himself up as judge?
Only those who think the space within their boundary is the Truth start Judging others. Those who live in the infinite space see the conditioned space within the boundaries and invite everyone into the Truth of the infinite space. Jesus said, 'foxes have theirs holes birds have their nests but the Son of man nowhere to lay his head'.(Mt.8.20) All the boundaries are man-made and human need but making them absolute is the source of violence.
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InChrist
Free4ever
Denying the exclusive, unique role of Jesus Christ as the Savior who came from eternal glory to earth to save humanity and instead making Him into some kind of guru who was here to show people how to find their higher Self and "Christ-consciousness" which anyone of any spiritual persuasion can do you are robbing Him of His Divinity. Of course it is only in your own mind and in the thoughts of those who you may influence that His divinity is robbed because in actuality, WHO, Jesus Christ is cannot be altered by human opinion.
Correct thinking impacts one's attitudes and actions, whether good or bad. Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. Incorrect thinking which denies God's word and the Person and work of Jesus Christ is not good fruit.
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Peace is only known through the real Jesus, the Prince of Peace, revealed by correct doctrine.
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. John 16:33
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 5:1
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation... Eph. 2:14
...and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Phil. 4:7
InChrist
Free4ever
God is the only Judge and He has set the boundaries for humans. Whatever you are talking about of... inviting everyone into the truth of infinite space, sounds like fuzzy, new age nonsense.
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead. Acts 17:30-31
My brother, you speak with Wisdom. Early on in my meditation practice a phrase came to mind for me which set my mind in a direction of peace ever since. It was very simple, "The path of non-judgement is the path of compassion". From that moment on, whereas I used to look at everyone in some form of judgment, from how they dressed, their social standing, how they fit into this or to that order, how they thought, what things they believed, etc (all of which is typical normal ways in which the ego navigates the world), suddenly I saw people beyond such boundaries. I saw them behind the masks. The masks were meaningless. They were not what defined them, or any human being.
I saw them in love. I saw them as Christ sees. The result of this, and through practice of regular mediation where I move beyond my self and those things that we use to define that, such as all these boundaries, I see that Light in others. Light that they themselves may not yet see nor act upon. I walk in greater peace, and as this happens, that joy that is Spirit draws others to, even for a moment, touch something within themselves that is eternal. Freedom. Freedom from boundaries. Freedom from our self-contractions. Freedom from judging others. Freedom from judging themselves.
Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged". When we live in a path of non-judgement, "where are thy accusers"? It's not God who judges you.
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Insightful! I do feel that there can be necessary discernment, but that's beside the point you're making here. The vast majority of opinions we form are excessive and destructive on some level. Of course, I do form and express judgments when necessary, but refrain from grasping at/ possessing them beyond the purpose they serve within a particular context or relevant situation.
It's somewhat similar to the teaching on being God-giving. The path of non-attachment is the path of genuine generosity. It's a matter of paying it forward.
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John Martin
Active Member
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John Martin
Active Member
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
There is definitely another way of interpreting this statement, according to Mormon doctrine. While we believe that Jesus Christ is the only means by which mankind may be reunited with and reconciled to God, we also believe that death does not close the door of opportunity to accept Him. Billions have lived and died without having really had what anyone who is going to be completely honest about the matter would admit was a fair chance to hear, understand, and accept the Christian message. We believe that death is merely the separation of the physical body from the immortal spirit, and that the spirit of man remains fully cognizant and capable of making choices and decisions after death -- that is, up until the Second Coming of Christ when all will be resurrected and judged. So, even after death, it is possible for someone who had not has the opportunity to accept Christ in this life to repent of his sins and to acknowledge Christ as his Savior and Redeemer. In such a way, someone who lived his life as a Hindu, Muslim or even without a belief in God, could eventually be "saved." Acceptance of Christ, in other words, is essential; we just see the time-line as being considerably longer.
There is one other way in which our understanding differs from the traditional Christian perspective, but does not contradict anything the Bible tells us. Jesus claimed to be "the resurrection" and "the life." We believe that, through Him, everyone who has ever lived will ultimately be resurrected, and that almost without exception will be allowed to enter into Heaven and receive at least "a portion of God's glory." Paul spoke of three heavenly glories, and compared them to the sun, moon and stars. He said that this same principle would exist with respect to the resurrection of man. Those who receive the highest degree of glory (like that of the sun) will actually reside forever in God's presence. Those who have lived their lives in such a way that they merit this blessing will have "Eternal Life" or "Exaltation." But as the scriptures tell us, there will be relatively few who attain the fullness of God's glory. Since the scriptures also remind us that ultimately "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ," it is logical to conclude that His atoning sacrifice will allow them to also receive the blessings of Heaven. They won't spend eternity in the presence of God Himself, but will receive a heavenly glory which can be compared to either the moon or the stars. Without Christ's sacrifice, they would be forever lost; through it, they will be rewarded commensurate with their obedience and faithfulness (once they have confessed Him as their Savior).
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John Martin
Active Member
Dear inCristo,
InCristo:Thank you for your thoughts, but I believe they are in contradiction to the scriptures. I respect your right to contradict the scriptures if that is what you choose to do, but the scriptures call false teachings heresy.
John Martin:Jesus Christ did not write any scripture. He gave his oral teachings. What we have in the scripture is how his disciples have understood or interpreted his teachings. We interpret the scriptures according to our own level of understanding. There are certain criteria to interpret the teachings of Christ:
it must be universally valid,
It must be unifying,
It must be liberating
It must give possibility for growth into higher divine-human relationship,
It must be reasonable,
It must be open to new understanding but any new understanding should satisfy the above five principles.
InCristo:Jesus was speaking to His disciples and those who followed Him when He spoke of them being salt and the light. ( And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying: Matthew 5:1-2) Those who have faith in Jesus Christ and and listen to His words have His light. He was not telling the Pharisees they were salt or light, He was not telling those who worshipped Roman gods they were salt and light, He was not telling those who practiced divination they were salt because He was speaking only to those who followed Him.
John Martin:I am very sorry. Jesus' teaching is universal. It is valid for all. Jesus was telling who human beings are in their deepest level: no one put the lamp under a bushel. Human beings are not aware their divine light within. They are living in ignorance. He wanted them to remove the bushel and make the light shine openly.
InCristo: You are correct that Jesus Christ brings peace and unity to... everyone who belongs to Him, Jew, Greek, free, slave, men, women, but that unity is in Christ. Those who reject Jesus Christ have no unity and peace with Him, each other or peace and reconciliation with God.
J.M. Yes Christ. But Christ is not Jesus. Christ is the universal consciousness. Chris is the name which Christians give to that nameless consciousness. Hindus call it Hiranya Gargha, the golden seed from which the whole of creation comes. This universal consciousness was there before Jesus. Jesus who was an individual physical person at the moment of his baptism realized that he was one with Christ,he was one with universal consciousness, the eternal logos. In the beginning was the word,the word with God and the word was God, says St.John. it is in this universal consciousness we find the unity already there.It is not the artificial unity based on what we believe but it is the essential unity existing from all eternity. This consciousness is like the trunk that holds all the branches( belief systems) and all the leaves(individually). Only in and through that nameless consciousness we have salvation. it is only this consciousness that is saving the humanity from all eternity, even before Jesus of Nazareth was born. When St.Paul spoke of Christ, he was referring to that nameless universal consciousness with which Jesus was united during his earthly life.
InCristo: Christianity has not made everyone into sinners. Everyone does a fine job of sinning all on their own. The scriptures simply point out this reality which humans like to ignore. If you think that humans do not sin and do need the Savior Jesus Christ who came into this world to save sinners, then you have a different gospel than the one declared in the Bible.
J.M. I do not say humans do not sin. But the primary mission of Jesus was not to call people sinners but to reveal who they are from all eternity: you are the slat of the earth, you are the light of the world. If sin means being ignorant of our true dignity as the image and likeness of God then we are all sinners. The insistence of Jesus was not on our sinfulness but who we are by the grace of God. Our salvation is the free gift of God, not because of our repentance. Repentance is a process through which we discover God's unconditional love that God has already saved as he created us. Salvation is not something new.It is already there, within us. The kingdom of God is at hand, repent. Swami Vivekananda seems to have remarked: you Christians are obsessed with sin and Satan( guilt) but you must be obsessed with you divine self. Many Christians carry the burden of sin and guilt. I have met many persons from Christian background who suffer from this sin and guilt. I am sure Christianity has to change its language.Christianity has to offer the good news: you are the salt of the earth,you are the light of the world. and then help people to discover. Once I read in a small booklet in Belgium: every day thousands of Christians are leaving the Churches(in Europe) to go to God.
InCristo:Thank you for your thoughts, but I believe they are in contradiction to the scriptures. I respect your right to contradict the scriptures if that is what you choose to do, but the scriptures call false teachings heresy.
John Martin:Jesus Christ did not write any scripture. He gave his oral teachings. What we have in the scripture is how his disciples have understood or interpreted his teachings. We interpret the scriptures according to our own level of understanding. There are certain criteria to interpret the teachings of Christ:
it must be universally valid,
It must be unifying,
It must be liberating
It must give possibility for growth into higher divine-human relationship,
It must be reasonable,
It must be open to new understanding but any new understanding should satisfy the above five principles.
InCristo:Jesus was speaking to His disciples and those who followed Him when He spoke of them being salt and the light. ( And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying: Matthew 5:1-2) Those who have faith in Jesus Christ and and listen to His words have His light. He was not telling the Pharisees they were salt or light, He was not telling those who worshipped Roman gods they were salt and light, He was not telling those who practiced divination they were salt because He was speaking only to those who followed Him.
John Martin:I am very sorry. Jesus' teaching is universal. It is valid for all. Jesus was telling who human beings are in their deepest level: no one put the lamp under a bushel. Human beings are not aware their divine light within. They are living in ignorance. He wanted them to remove the bushel and make the light shine openly.
InCristo: You are correct that Jesus Christ brings peace and unity to... everyone who belongs to Him, Jew, Greek, free, slave, men, women, but that unity is in Christ. Those who reject Jesus Christ have no unity and peace with Him, each other or peace and reconciliation with God.
J.M. Yes Christ. But Christ is not Jesus. Christ is the universal consciousness. Chris is the name which Christians give to that nameless consciousness. Hindus call it Hiranya Gargha, the golden seed from which the whole of creation comes. This universal consciousness was there before Jesus. Jesus who was an individual physical person at the moment of his baptism realized that he was one with Christ,he was one with universal consciousness, the eternal logos. In the beginning was the word,the word with God and the word was God, says St.John. it is in this universal consciousness we find the unity already there.It is not the artificial unity based on what we believe but it is the essential unity existing from all eternity. This consciousness is like the trunk that holds all the branches( belief systems) and all the leaves(individually). Only in and through that nameless consciousness we have salvation. it is only this consciousness that is saving the humanity from all eternity, even before Jesus of Nazareth was born. When St.Paul spoke of Christ, he was referring to that nameless universal consciousness with which Jesus was united during his earthly life.
InCristo: Christianity has not made everyone into sinners. Everyone does a fine job of sinning all on their own. The scriptures simply point out this reality which humans like to ignore. If you think that humans do not sin and do need the Savior Jesus Christ who came into this world to save sinners, then you have a different gospel than the one declared in the Bible.
J.M. I do not say humans do not sin. But the primary mission of Jesus was not to call people sinners but to reveal who they are from all eternity: you are the slat of the earth, you are the light of the world. If sin means being ignorant of our true dignity as the image and likeness of God then we are all sinners. The insistence of Jesus was not on our sinfulness but who we are by the grace of God. Our salvation is the free gift of God, not because of our repentance. Repentance is a process through which we discover God's unconditional love that God has already saved as he created us. Salvation is not something new.It is already there, within us. The kingdom of God is at hand, repent. Swami Vivekananda seems to have remarked: you Christians are obsessed with sin and Satan( guilt) but you must be obsessed with you divine self. Many Christians carry the burden of sin and guilt. I have met many persons from Christian background who suffer from this sin and guilt. I am sure Christianity has to change its language.Christianity has to offer the good news: you are the salt of the earth,you are the light of the world. and then help people to discover. Once I read in a small booklet in Belgium: every day thousands of Christians are leaving the Churches(in Europe) to go to God.
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