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Jesus said my god my god why have you forsaken me?

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
sparkyluv said:
How God can be in heaven and Jesus be on earth at the same time...I don't know. That's beyond my own understanding. But it was so.
I don't believe it was so. Furthermore, I don't even know where the Bible claims it was so.
 

Genna

Member
Katzpur said:
Well you might want to start out by trying to find anywhere is the Bible where God is described as being "omnipresent." Good luck.

The Bible never describes God (i.e. God the Father) as being everywhere at once. It specifically states, on multiple occasions, in fact, that He is "in Heaven." Jesus Christ was, for the period of 34 years, "on Earth." How someone can be everywhere at once and yet simultansously physically occupy space on Earth is beyond me. But then what do I know, believing, as I do, in a God who is a bit schizoid?

If I show you verses that shows that God is omnipresent, you will most likely insert your personal opinion or twist the scripture to make it appear not so. OR you will make the excuse that the scriptures are errant.

Proverbs 15:3 - The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Jeremiah 23:24 - Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Psalms 139:7,8 - Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

You can dislike what I have to say, but you are not disageeing with me, you are disagreeing with the plain context which shows that God is omnipresent. Please do not make any excuses. BTW, I don't believe in luck!;)
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
This happens to be a very special passage for me. The apostles who quoted Jesus often, never shied away from giving us their personal translation. This is why the scriptures seem to conflict from time to time.

However, here we see the apostles quoting the Aramaic in situ: Eloi, Eloi lama sabach thani! One has to ponder "WHY?".

Somehow, I feel that Satan shudders with rage anytime somone tries to repeat what our Lord said there. It was not a sign of defeat, but PROOF that Jesus had become sin for ALL OF US. God can not abide sin, and so turned his face away from Jesus for the very first time in all of eternity. Satan thought he had the Son of man on the ropes and was just about to have our souls for all eternity and then WHOOP, Jesus comes from behind and wins all the marbles.
 

sparkyluv

Member
Genna said:
That is what has bothered me about this doctrine called the trinity. Jesus is God, God is omnipresent, Jesus is God thus should be omnipresent. So how can he be separate from himself whilst being omnipresent?
The trinity is weird to explain and I'm doing you a favor by telling you that I'm not the best person AT ALL to explain it to you.
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
Genna said:
I don't understand? what do you mean "a" god? I thought there was only one true God according to Christianity and all others are false?
Keep in mind that the self-proclaimed logical professor does not believe in any god... especially not THE one true GOD proclaimed by Christians ;)
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
sparkyluv said:
Jesus had taken all the sin of the world on himself and when one is full of sin (or even one sin) they are seperated from God. In that moment, God had seperated himself from Jesus (forsaken him).

Jesus was a man. He was fully God and fully man. He had to be fully man in order to die on the cross.
NetDoc said:
However, here we see the apostles quoting the Aramaic in situ: Eloi, Eloi lama sabach thani! One has to ponder "WHY?".

Somehow, I feel that Satan shudders with rage anytime somone tries to repeat what our Lord said there. It was not a sign of defeat, but PROOF that Jesus had become sin for ALL OF US. God can not abide sin, and so turned his face away from Jesus for the very first time in all of eternity. Satan thought he had the Son of man on the ropes and was just about to have our souls for all eternity and then WHOOP, Jesus comes from behind and wins all the marbles.
I can't answer the OP any better than these guys can... so I'll just agree with and frubel 'em both :D
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
doppleganger said:
Unless, of course, one is predisposed to viewing the Bible as the only source for "facts" or "strong evidence."

From what I can see, most believers says that the bible are the facts. Its the documented contract between mankind and the self proclaimed god.
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
AllisonW70 said:
I must admit that there was a time when I struggled with the exact same question. I questioned this until I came to understand the true meaning behind the crucifixion in the first place. On the cross, Jesus took the burden of our sin upon Himself. He was and is the sacrifice. That is what He came to do. We, as humans, fall short of God's glory every day. On the cross, Jesus paid the fine for our debt. My understanding is that as He took the sin of all humanity upon Himself, He became the living testament of what sin does: separates us from God. In that moment, Christ suffered the ultimate pain, the pain of our sin and the separation from God, as His body died. When we accept Him as our personal Lord and Savior, we know that our debt was paid that day. He was and is victorious over sin because He lives. That Is the Gospel. That is what it's all about.

Numerous times jesus called the self proclaimed god father but in the time of jesus' death he accidentally called it god. From a psychological point of view when an individual are in the eyes of death, the realization suddenly hits them, and by saying this phrase jesus realized that he was but a man that is why he said my god not my father.
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
michel said:
I hope that I shan't offend anyone by writing what I believe.

To my mind, Jesus Christ, who was a son of God (which we all are, because we are his children), spent an incarnation on Earth.

During that incarnation (which set him above others, in that he was born to a Virgin - a symbol of his purity - was still born as a human. Without doubt, a human who knew what his 'path' was to be; by that, I mean that he was aware of what he needed to accomplish in his life, but quite possibly did not know the details.

As we humans have, Jesus Christ had a soul from which he could not 'access' memories prior to his birth.

Therefore, it is my belief that he did not know the details of his death; only the purpose for which he was here, on Earth - just as some of us believe we know our purpose. I guess, when it came to the time, the realisation of what God expected of him was so staggering that he urttered those words.

But didn't jesus know of the plan that is why he cried blood in the garden while 3 of his apostles slept?
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
Ezzedean said:
But how can God seperate from Himself? To some, Jesus is God. Although Jesus never said he was God, some people believe he was. So how can God leave Himself? How can God be weak?
Apparantly God says that He put a man in Jesus' image on the cross, and raised Jesus to safety before it happened. God claims that the ones who plotted against Jesus could not keep their plot secret from God, and then God planned also... and God is thee best of planners.
So let's say that it was a man in Jesus' image that God placed on the cross. Would it make more sense for someone who was put in this scenario to ask "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"... I think it makes a lot more sense... especially because hadith says it was an enemy of Jesus who he placed on the cross, and an enemy of Jesys was more than likely sure that he was following the right path... hence "Why have you forsaken me?"
I think it makes sense, but I'm sure many will disagree... which is fine and dandy. What do you guys think?

It sounded like as you said a man but in the end found out that he was really not a god and was made believe to be a god thus those selected words. In the end it appears another sacrificed human for the sake of making others believe it was a god... a self proclaimed god.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
ProfLogic said:
From what I can see, most believers says that the bible are the facts. Its the documented contract between mankind and the self proclaimed god.

Agreed. My post was an exercise in irony.
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
Genna said:
I don't understand? what do you mean "a" god? I thought there was only one true God according to Christianity and all others are false? If Jesus was "a" god, than either there is more than one God or he is a false god! I think it is safe to say that he was just a holy man, nothing more, nothing less!

Religion like catholics believe in the trinity. 3 gods in one.... the father the son and the Holy ghost later called the Holy Spirit. They are all equals. It is not surprising that a woman was never included as a god (like mother or daughter). It reflects in the male dominated society when they decided to start writing the scriptures that eventually was compiled 300 years by a selected few that you now know as the bible.

On the man part, it appears that it was a man that was decieved and made believed that he was a god. Its a reality, you need to look at people with the god complex, in their minds they think their devine but in the end they found out they are not cause they could not get back to their fallen flesh. Now the words that came out from jesus reflects this since he discovered that he was just a man after all.
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
sparkyluv said:
Jesus had taken all the sin of the world on himself and when one is full of sin (or even one sin) they are seperated from God. In that moment, God had seperated himself from Jesus (forsaken him).

Jesus was a man. He was fully God and fully man. He had to be fully man in order to die on the cross.

How can he be fully both? Ar eyou saying given the situations jesus would transform himself to a man then to a god?
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Here's a business idea:

Set up a coffe shop right next to a Catholic or Protestant Church. Charge $2.00 a cup. Every time someone gives you a five dollar bill, give them $1 change. When they ask where the rest of their change is, tell them:

"It's a Mystery."

:D
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
FeathersinHair said:
Since the nature of Jesus' divinity is not integral to my religion, I suppose I don't really care about that part of the question. My perception is that the words speak of a person or being that understood suffering. I find it puzzling, though, that the matter should matter enough to a person not of that faith enough that they'd try to poke holes in the bubble-wrap of the spirituality of another person.

It would not be puzzling if you ever encountered this awareness that claims to be a god. I have and decided to challenge it and test what it really is. I know how it goes into the minds of mankind and what it uses, its the same technique that it used in a man called jesus. Hope you are strong enough to encounter this awareness, it truly was strange at first but if you focus and let your mind think rationally you will begin to understand what this self proclaimed god really is and what is its real motive. The sad truth is that for most it was too late before they realized that it really not a god but it will keep proclaiming that it is.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
ProfLogic said:
let your mind think rationally you will begin to understand what this self proclaimed god really is and what is its real motive. The sad truth is that for most it was too late before they realized that it really not a god but it will keep proclaiming that it is.

Okay, now you've really piqued my interest, Professor.

I approach such notions as "God" linguistically, as symbols and try to get at the experiences meant to be symbolized by them. But your quote above seems to suggest you are headed somewhere else with this.

Care to fill in more details about what you mean? I'd be very interested in reading them.
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
dawny0826 said:
You have to keep in mind Christ's ultimate PURPOSE while on earth. His purpose was to show us how to live for God...how to obey God, how to commune with God in a Parent/Child relationship. Christ didn't need to prove His divinity because that's not why He was here. He was here to show us the way that we should live our lives for God. He was here to first and foremost, become the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, so that we COULD be saved. And He was here to teach us the type of life we should live as God's children...and how one is to lay down their flesh to live in the spirit.

Christ was a man. He was also very much God. Fully man. Fully God. Who better to show us how to Live for God than God Himself?

The puzzling word is my god my god.... and forsaken. It appears that jesus was expecting something in return and he did not get it while he was being crucified. Remember in the garden when he said thy will be done. He knew what was coming and he wept, some people say in blood because he was distraught. Some people say because he was weeping for mankind which doesn't make sense since jesus could have done this without being on earth......
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
You certainly don't even need to use that example to prove that Jesus considered His Father to also be His God. There are two much better examples than that:

In John 14:28 (prior to His crucifixion), Jesus said to His Apostles, "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." And in John 20:17, we have an account of Jesus words to Mary on Easter morning when she first saw Him near the Garden tomb: "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God."

Neither of these verses proves that Jesus is not "God." But they do prove that the God the Father is supreme. More to the point, it is quite impossible to forsake oneself.

Then if there are different tiers of godliness, the one god belief is false. It is similar to the pagan religion beliefs of multiple gods.. some stronger than others?
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
This happens to be a very special passage for me. The apostles who quoted Jesus often, never shied away from giving us their personal translation. This is why the scriptures seem to conflict from time to time.

However, here we see the apostles quoting the Aramaic in situ: Eloi, Eloi lama sabach thani! One has to ponder "WHY?".

Somehow, I feel that Satan shudders with rage anytime somone tries to repeat what our Lord said there. It was not a sign of defeat, but PROOF that Jesus had become sin for ALL OF US. God can not abide sin, and so turned his face away from Jesus for the very first time in all of eternity. Satan thought he had the Son of man on the ropes and was just about to have our souls for all eternity and then WHOOP, Jesus comes from behind and wins all the marbles.
Why would jesus utter those words but if he did asked the bible gods' help but never recieved it. Using your belief that there is satan and looking at todays society, do you think satan has not won since there are more and more exploitation of the innocent, poor, the sick, the old all over the world. On top of this the so called wicked are never punished by society since there are plenty of serial crimes.
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
Snowbear said:
Keep in mind that the self-proclaimed logical professor does not believe in any god... especially not THE one true GOD proclaimed by Christians ;)

I interacted with it and yes the proclaimed god is no god..And yes its not satan as believers would put it...because evil was just invented by the self proclaimed god, so that humanity could use it to destroy each other and their beliefs. Have you noticed that if a person's idea is not the same as theirs, the other party automatically becomes evil.. they had to be stopped instead of saying thats another perspective..and respect it. I have no problem if you believe in it or not, as long as you do not force others to believe in it... by the way I could be the real god and just don't want to proclaim myself as one at this time.....LOL...
 
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