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Featured Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Nova2216, May 22, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is not true. I put my belief in the Bible, including but not limited to the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.
    Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures, so belief in the Bible is a requirement for Baha'is.

    I do not need a book by William Sears to know that those prophecies were fulfilled. All I need to do is read the Bible prophecies and compare those to what happened in the holy land in the 19th century to know that those prophecies were fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah.
     
  2. actsfourthirty

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    what is the it?
     
  3. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    " It is finished " means Jesus finished something. He still has more to do . What was ' finished ' was what was finished.
    Just like I finished all my jobs at work today . At the end of the project ,I said " it is finished .
    ' Works ' in the bible is always ' works of the law "
    Romans 3:27

    “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.”

    Faith is the opposite.

    Eph 2
    8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9Not of works , lest any man should boast.

    The context of Eph is salvation is not by circumcision and works of the law .
    Faith is contrasted by not being a work ( work of the law .
    Believing is not a work .
     
  4. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

    Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

    Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

    The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

    The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

    What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

    Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

    Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

    There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

    There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

    Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

    Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

    Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

    ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.

    Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The it is Jesus' mission on this earth -- it was finished when Jesus died on the cross and gave up the ghost.

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    Of course, that means that Jesus is not coming BACK to this world, as Jesus said in other verses:

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


    So the hundred-dollar question is why Christians believe that Jesus is coming back to this world.
     
  6. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    John 19:28-30,

    28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

    29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.

    30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.​

    Context shows the "it" to be, "that the scripture might be fulfilled..." Jesus did everything his Father asked of Him, including Psalm 69.

    PS 69:21,

    They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
    Apparently that was the last thing Jesus needed to do to effect our salvation, so upon doing it he said, "It is finished."
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Where did Jesus ever say He has more work to do? You cannot just decide for Jesus that He has more work to do because you want Jesus to come back to this world, it doesn't work that way. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world yet you deny the plain meaning of your own Bible.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
     
  8. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Jesus spoke these words to Israel (not Gentiles) before his crucifixion. Needless to say, his death and resurrection changed things in a most dramatic fashion, including how one is now saved.

    Eph 2:5-8,

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).

    6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    Ephesians was written, not to Israel before Pentecost, but to the church of the body which is composed of Jew and Gentile. God made one new man out of the two (Eph 2:15).

    It is always critically important for the workman of God's word to keep in mind to whom something was written and when it was written. God told Israel to carry out several sacrifices on a daily basis in the OT. Why don't we do that now? Because, like works vs. grace, those sacraments were for Israel before Jesus came. Jesus changed the rules!

    We have little trouble understanding that a letter addressed to someone else does not concern anyone else as to the contents of that letter. If I were to discover a letter in the attic from the US Draft Board addressed to my grandfather that said he was to report for duty, would I then report for duty? Of course not! I know the letter was written at a time when the draft was in effect and that it is not addressed to me. The time and addressee determine who must follow the instructions in that letter. Scripture is the same.
     
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  9. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished all the work which thou gavest me to do and from now on there is no more for me , you, the Holy Spirit , we all retire from this moment ,collect our pensions .

    Erm no .. Anyone reading the NT can easily see that God did not retire.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I never said that God retired, God never retires. I said that Jesus has no more work to do in this world.
    God has sent three Messengers/Manifestations since the days of Jesus -- Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.
    God will continue to send Messengers/Manifestations as long as humanity exists.

    “From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68
     
  11. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    What convinced you of these teachings?
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Once I was convinced that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be I believed everything that He wrote.
    I explained how i became convinced that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be in this post:

    How important are facts within your religious beliefs?
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    As you'll have noticed, Mark's Jesus (the first, really, since Paul's has an earthly bio of two lines or so) is a poor, defeated, abandoned figure at his crucifixion, crying out to know why his God has forsaken him. The next, Matthew's, is only a little better, and makes the same cry. Luke's is more self-possessed again, and does not complain that he's forsaken. John's, the last, the Mk IV as it were, is the MC of his crucifixion, cool, in charge.

    And he's the only one who says "It is finished", like dusting your hands off and putting your power tools back in the truck.

    So, whatever it was that the author of John thought his Jesus had finished, it wasn't present in the earlier accounts, Mark's, Matthew's or Luke's.

    As you know, the Greek writer Plato was a playwright as well as a philosopher; so when he reports the dialogues of Socrates, they have that artistic snap to them, nothing like, for example, a courtroom transcript. And if you've read his account of the death of Socrates, it's a fine piece of dramatic writing, with the hero accepting his own death as a matter of high principle, and never flustered, always cool.

    I suggest that the Greek-speaking author of John was taking a leaf out of the same book, making sure you were impressed with his story and his hero.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    John said that Jesus' work was finished on earth, which means that Jesus had no more work to do in this world.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    But do any of the other gospels say that Jesus was not finished, that Jesus had more work to do?
    Where, in any of the gospels does it say that Jesus had more work to do?
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    There are five Jesuses in the NT, and they're not the same, even though Matthew and Luke are based on Mark.

    Nor, when we're discussing what "it" it was that was finished, has anyone been able to tell me why, given an omnipotent and benevolent god, it was necessary for Jesus to die, or, specifically, what Jesus' death accomplished ─ what aspect of reality was different after he'd died?
     
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  16. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Father ours human as first spirit who came out of eternal became human speaks about chosen human science practices against God.

    Men humans chose it.

    Did not want manifested human lower life form. Wanted to be in the eternal only.

    Science says a condition perfectly balanced first had to exist to own mass change. Creation itself.

    Said it was the eternal. When no space or burning God O eternal mass had yet left as sounds of mass left to become self consuming angels in hell.

    Space creation cause.

    o. Small sounds planets.
    O large sounds suns.

    As they burnt more eternal presence origin was removed opening space just a flat plane that stretched into its pit. Deep space just a stretch.

    Space is deep by stretch yet in form is just a thin flat plane.

    How one mass a language was removed out of the eternal originally. Gods creation.

    As space is just a flat plane it did not take very much gas from earth to refill its emptiness.

    Yet you notice as gas owns less mass space exists within it. We can walk through the gas state.

    Why the eternal was forced by heavens mass reformed mass to recontact across the thin space plane with the eternal.

    The eternal having sung God out from its body therefore sang out new spirit bodies why we left the eternal in pre owned spirit form. Moved into earths gods heavens.

    Eternal explanation singing to heavens through it moves O GOD the opening which spirit moved out of the eternal direct into life manifestation.

    Is not any UFO story attack from out of space.

    Proof we became lowered form yet moved into the highest created form of water. We have water held within our bodies.

    Radiation kills us. We only survive as we never belonged in creation. Proven by our living conditions.

    Our life only continues in nature by propagation itself.

    Humans it is sex.

    We know if we stop sex we age and die. No more human problems.

    Matter of conscious fact.

    Father said our science brother always owned a quest to stop life suffering with God.

    Wanted to fill up the heavens gas space with cloud mass to keep the living eternal spirit only within the eternal. By not allowing space emptiness to release spirit from the eternal.

    Knows it is real as dinosaur life died in snap freeze. Nature already existed and new spirit bodies animals and humans re emerged from the eternal again.

    Instant re manifested life bodies.

    What his proposed science quest of man first was. To not allow gas space to continue forcing spirit beings from eternal to cross over into gods heavens and live sacrificed.

    What father told me.

    Two humans proved we came from the eternal form originally. As living examples life manifested.

    Jesus disappeared and reappeared as a living man. Humans first own no name. Title Jesus a scientific description only why life was attacked.

    Bahuallah history.

    When wandering asteroid star came very close to earth releasing gas mass due to UFO metal sun attacks it owns as stone as saviour of gods gases less radiation as God is stone gas not sun metal.

    They disappeared in that event attacked bodies hurt yet survived yet reappeared as it was an example only. Gases coming into an earth burning heavens then reheat. Why it was miraculous.

    Yet we all were shown beyond any doubt we came from the eternal and not anywhere else.

    Less radiation proved we had come from a higher spirit. Why the living body disappeared yet first it is attacked burning sacrificed near to self combustion.

    Why the evil teaching existed. A miracle is a rarity not owned by the human masses. Science theories for the masses.

    Father said as a sun in space is cooling on its outer body when it blasted earth stone the wandering stars formed first. Hotter gas mass blasted out also cooled in space as metals.

    Both forms however cooled in space opening stretching it's depths into deeper space that changed pressure.

    How father explained that the science man thinks his quest is holy based on original man choices to react wanting amassing of cloud form to remove atmospheric gas space.

    Our human reality.

    Yet all we see is his evil satanic causes. And not his original quest to save us. Why we never understood his scientific thesis.
     
  17. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    Jesus appears to Paul in Acts 9 . Looks like he's still working.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That was then and now is now. I meant that Jesus was not going to do anything in the present age.
     
  19. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    So not finished when he said " its finished " So after Paul where does the bible say Jesus was not going to do anything after ?
     
  20. actsfourthirty

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    the it is the Passover
    The words the high priest says at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice are “it is finished” Jn 1:29 lamb
     
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