Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[InvestigateTruth]

Since there was no "heaven or hell" scenario ever suggested in the Hebrew scriptures, from God's perspective, everyone who has died from Abel to the time of Christ's return would be in the same place..."sheol" (Hades) It is the common grave of mankind. Nothing at all to fear. Since the dead have paid 'sin's wages' (death) and Jesus' sacrifice has meant forgiveness of their sins, all in the grave will be brought back to life...some to enjoy the reward of their faithful course, and some who may not have lived a good life at all, but who are not incorrigibly wicked, will also be given a second chance.

Jesus sent the incorrigibly wicked ones to "gehenna", which is not "hell" either in the sense of eternal torture....but simply a death from which they will never awaken. Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. God has no desire or purpose in tormenting anyone for the sake of it. Punishment is always administered with a view to an erring one realizing their sin, and coming to repentance and receiving forgiveness.



No, Jesus never mentioned a heaven or hell scenario either. There is no "hell" in the Hebrew scriptures.
You will find this concept throughout non-Christian religions as well as in later Judaism and Islam....but it is NOT a Bible teaching. Immortality of the soul is an adoption from pagan beliefs common in Greek mythology. Heaven and Hell is a product of that belief.

Resurrection has nothing to do with a spiritual part of man that floats off to one or the other destination.....

If we take Jesus' example when he resurrected his friend Lazarus.....

"Now a man named Lazʹa·rus was sick; he was from Bethʹa·ny, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. . . . . So his sisters sent a message to him, saying: “Lord, see! the one you have affection for is sick.” 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said: “This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazʹa·rus. 6 However, when he heard that Lazʹa·rus was sick, he actually remained in the place where he was for two more days. . . .


11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died,15 and I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

. . . .many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”. . .

Then Jesus, after groaning again within himself, came to the tomb. It was, in fact, a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said: “Take the stone away.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to him: “Lord, by now he must smell, for it has been four days.” 40 Jesus said to her: “Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took the stone away. Then Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but I spoke on account of the crowd standing around, so that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Lazʹa·rus, come out!” 44 The man who had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them: “Free him and let him go.” (John ch 11)

Jesus referred to Lazarus as "sleeping" even though he was dead. He asked Martha if she believed that the dead would rise and she expressed belief, not in an immortal soul that had gone to heaven, but in a "resurrection on the last day". It was a Jewish belief that God's Kingdom would rule for this "last day" to bring blessings to mankind and this included a resurrection of the dead.

That "day" of the Kingdom's rule is referred to in Revelation as 1000 years. Jesus said that God would choose from among mankind suitable rulers who would also act as priests in that Kingdom. (Revelation 14:1-4; Revelation 20:6) So all who died from the beginning went to the same place....the common grave of mankind.....which was the destiny chosen for them by the disobedience of their father Adam. Jesus, as "the last Adam", paid for their release from this bondage, incurred through no fault on their part.
But you will notice that there is more than one resurrection.....Revelation speaks of the "first resurrection" which is for those who will rule with Christ. The general resurrection of the dead takes place later, when the Kingdom has cleared away all wickedness. Then Jesus calls the dead from their graves. (John 5:28-29)

God is not unjust, nor does he have any interest in torturing anyone. He gives us the options (conduct that leads to either life or death) and hopes that of our own free will that we will choose life by obeying his reasonable commands.

That is the logical and wonderful message of hope for all mankind. Choose life by not trying to force God into a box created by man.....instead try to fit yourself into the box created by God.....only the righteous will.

So, are you saying, when Jesus returns, all those who lived before Jesus, will be resurrected, and get a second chance. If they believe in Jesus, and do good actions, they will be saved. But what about the rest, who were born after Jesus, like you and I? Do we get a second chance when Jesus returns?

 

[rrobs]

Thanks for asking.

The New Testament mentions at least four kinds of works: (1) works of the Law of Moses (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20); (2) works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21); (3) works of merit (Titus 3:4-7); and (4) works resulting from obedience of faith (James 2:14-24). This last category often is referred to as “works of God.” This phrase does not mean works performed by God; rather, the intent is “works required and approved by God” (Thayer, 1958, p. 248; cf. Jackson, 1997, 32:47). Consider the following example from Jesus’ statements in John 6:27-29:


Objections to God's Plan of Salvation Considered

by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.



Thanks

I'm always amazed at the depth and scope of the scriptures!

I've never considered the different categories of "work." Now that you've been so kind as to point them out, I will take the time to study them. Thanks for the info.

God bless

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

(Acts 22:16) defines calling on the name of the Lord.

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your Sins
4. Calling on the name of the Lord

Just recognizing who Jesus is or calling out His name is not the new birth. (Mt.7:21-23). I find it interesting in (Jn 3:3-5) that water is mentioned there and we also see it mentioned in (Acts 22:16). Notice the word "washed" (1Cor.6:11) (Eph.5:26) (Titus 3:5) (Heb.10:22) (2Peter 2:22).

The blood of Christ washes away our sins when we obey the Lord in water baptism (Mark 16:15,16). Water baptism alone does not do anything except get one wet, but hearing the truth and believing truth and obeying truth in all the Lord says does save one according to (1Peter 1:22-23) (Rev. 1:5).

You have been taught that water baptism is a work man does after the point of salvation but the bible does not teach this. If it does show it to me and I will accept it (1Thess. 5:21). Prove your point.

If water baptism is not necessary why does the word of God say baptism doth now also saves us in (1Peter 3:21)?

Evidently before water baptism the person was not saved.


Thanks

Nothing is given in (Acts 22:16) defining 'calling on the name of the Lord'. When you or I pray, are we not calling on the name of the Lord? Whenever we enter into communication with God or cry out to God, we are 'calling on the name of the Lord'. No, Paul had yet to be baptized. It was important for him to experience that baptism of water and spirit. But, he was already a saved man. He believed in Jesus Christ. Even in (Acts 22:10) he stated that he was being obedient to the Lord Jesus.

And, (Matt. 7:21-23) is not about the New Birth, or the denial of it.

No. The blood of Christ washes away our sins when we believe. That is why in (Mark 16:16) it says, "...but he that believeth not shall be damned." Yes we believe and are water baptized. But it is belief that moves God to declare us righteous. Not water baptism. You can be water baptized and still be an unbeliever. But you can be a believer and not be water baptized.

Yes, I noticed the word 'washed'. What of it?

(1 Peter 3:20-21) is clear about water baptism. It provides a good conscience towards God. In water baptism we publicly identify with Jesus Christ. It, in a figure only, shows what has already taken place in our life.

You need to understand that when the Bible speaks to salvation, you need to see which aspect of salvation it is talking about. Our immediate salvation, being saved from the penalty of sin. Our present salvation, our daily walk with God being saved from the corruption in this world. Or, our future salvation, being with God and Christ free from sin in a glorified body and spirit.

Just because you see 'water' in the Scripture, doesn't mean it is water baptism. Just because you see 'saved' in the Scripture doesn't mean a question of heaven or hell.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Deeje]

So, are you saying, when Jesus returns, all those who lived before Jesus, will be resurrected, and get a second chance. If they believe in Jesus, and do good actions, they will be saved.

This is what I believe the Bible says about that question....

Since Jesus tells us that “all” in their graves will be resurrected, the “righteous” are given the reward of everlasting life, whilst the “unrighteous” are resurrected to a period of judgment. (John 5:28-29) For all those who lived and died before Jesus came into the world, this period will be one of education for them, followed by decisions about their future. Because they are still free willed, it will depend on their own choices concerning that education, as to whether they continue living or not.

Humanity will be given 1,000 years to come back to the sinless state that Adam and his wife were created to enjoy. That is how long the Kingdom rules and brings us back to the beginning. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4)

But what about the rest, who were born after Jesus, like you and I? Do we get a second chance when Jesus returns?

According to the scriptures there are two ‘judgment periods’ where people are put on notice of God’s intentions and given opportunity to respond to them.

One of them was the days of Noah, where rebellious angels broke rank and took up residence on earth in materialised form, to experience the pleasures of the flesh. They produced a hybrid race of humans who wreaked havoc on the world of that time with unprecedented violence and immorality prevailing to influence everyone else. It was so bad that only Noah found favor with God at that time.

When Noah was given instructions to construct the ark, he ‘preached righteousness’ to the people and showed them the means that God provided for salvation.....but it all fell on deaf ears. All Noah received was ridicule and derision. None of that prevented him from completing his assignment.

Jesus used the days of Noah to illustrate that another ‘judgment’ period would come when he was due to return. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Only those who did as God instructed them to do, survived in Noah’s day, an extremely small minority....and the same would apply when Christ returned to eradicate satan and his influence in this world. (Matthew 7:13-14)

So again, as we await Christ’s coming to judge the world, violence and immorality also dominate people’s lives today. People are being put on notice that the present system of things is coming to an end, (Matthew 24:14) and again we see people taking no notice and even ridiculing those who are sounding that warning. (2 Peter 2:5-6, 9; 2 Peter 3:3-6)

We have to make a decision to obey God by following the instructions given by his Christ...now. We have to do this before the judgment because this is the time for decisions to be made.....when Jesus commences his judgment, we will have already proven to God, who we are. (sheep or goats) Just like the days of Noah, when God closed the door of the ark, there was no further opportunity for those outside of it to change their minds. Their fate was sealed.

So that is how we understand the scriptures.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is what I believe the Bible says about that question....

Since Jesus tells us that “all” in their graves will be resurrected, the “righteous” are given the reward of everlasting life, whilst the “unrighteous” are resurrected to a period of judgment. (John 5:28-29) For all those who lived and died before Jesus came into the world, this period will be one of education for them, followed by decisions about their future. Because they are still free willed, it will depend on their own choices concerning that education, as to whether they continue living or not.

Humanity will be given 1,000 years to come back to the sinless state that Adam and his wife were created to enjoy. That is how long the Kingdom rules and brings us back to the beginning. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4)



According to the scriptures there are two ‘judgment periods’ where people are put on notice of God’s intentions and given opportunity to respond to them.

One of them was the days of Noah, where rebellious angels broke rank and took up residence on earth in materialised form, to experience the pleasures of the flesh. They produced a hybrid race of humans who wreaked havoc on the world of that time with unprecedented violence and immorality prevailing to influence everyone else. It was so bad that only Noah found favor with God at that time.

When Noah was given instructions to construct the ark, he ‘preached righteousness’ to the people and showed them the means that God provided for salvation.....but it all fell on deaf ears. All Noah received was ridicule and derision. None of that prevented him from completing his assignment.

Jesus used the days of Noah to illustrate that another ‘judgment’ period would come when he was due to return. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Only those who did as God instructed them to do, survived in Noah’s day, an extremely small minority....and the same would apply when Christ returned to eradicate satan and his influence in this world. (Matthew 7:13-14)

So again, as we await Christ’s coming to judge the world, violence and immorality also dominate people’s lives today. People are being put on notice that the end of the present system of things is coming to an end, (Matthew 24:14) and again we see people taking no notice and even ridiculing those who are sounding that warning. (2 Peter 2:5-6, 9; 2 Peter 3:3-6)

We have to make a decision to obey God by following the instructions given by his Christ...now. We have to do this before the judgment because this is the time for decisions to be made.....when Jesus commences his judgment, we will have already proven to God, who we are. (sheep or goats) Just like the days of Noah, when God closed the door of the ark, there was no further opportunity for those outside of it to change their minds. Their fate was sealed.

So that is how we understand the scriptures.

Indeed when they will be resurrected, they would be overwhelmed by witnessing their own resurrection, and coming out of graves. What an extraordinary event and experience that will be. Will they still deny the truth and disbelieve and continue being wicked, after seeing themselves and fathers resurrected?
What about those who will be resurrected for eternal damnation? Wouldn't they be given a chance to be educated?

 

[Nova2216]

The work he was called to do was finished. The door for salvation was finished.

Thus, "By grace you are saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

However, a saved person should bring a boat-load of good works.

Thanks for responding.

Let's look at the Ephesians and their conversion since you brought it up. (Eph.2:1-10).

Let us go to (Acts 19:1-6) and see how they were saved by grace.

The Ephesians were baptized twice in water.


Why?

Baptism doth now also save us (1Peter3:21)


Belief + Baptism = Saved - (Mark 16:16)



Noah was saved by grace in (Gen. 6:8,22)

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Let's see how.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.



That sounds like (Mt. 28:18-20).

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:



Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

Let me be very clear.

I do believe it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses the sins of man (Eph. 1:7) (Rev. 1:5).

It is not the water that does the cleansing of sins.

It is in the water that the blood does the cleansing according to (Col. 2:12).

Most anyone who claims to be a christian believes the blood is what cleanses the soul of sin.

The question which must be clearly answered is -

"When" does the blood do the cleansing?

Notice (Col. 2:11-13)

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

It's "when" one is buried in water that the Lord does this operation or a putting off of the body of sins.

Notice one is buried and in this burial an operation of God takes place and then a raising takes place.

Notice - it is when one is risen that one is said to be "with Him (Christ).

A burial and a raising.


That sounds like what (Rom. 6:3-6) is speaking about.

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

After the burial and raising we walk in newness of life. We arer a new creation (2Cor. 5:17).

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


There are only two text which tell men how to get into Christ.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal. 3:27)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(Rom.6:3-6)

 

[Deeje]

Indeed when they will be resurrected, they would be overwhelmed by witnessing their own resurrection, and coming out of graves. What an extraordinary event and experience that will be. Will they still deny the truth and disbelieve and continue being wicked, after seeing themselves and fathers resurrected?

The resurrection will indeed be a miracle, as it was in the first century. But as we saw with Israel who witnessed many miracles, it doesn't mean that their impact lasts when human nature takes over. Complacency takes the shine off.

Humans will be who they are regardless....they can pretend for so long but unless their choices are heart felt, they will not last. Life will become routine after a time, and family members stretching back many generations will become "normal".

What about those who will be resurrected for eternal damnation? Wouldn't they be given a chance to be educated?

There is no resurrection to "eternal damnation"...that is a term invented by proponents of the hellfire doctrine. It requires a belief in an immortal, spiritual part of man that departs from the body at death......the Bible has no such teaching, but you will find it in almost all non-Christian religions. It was an adoption that appealed to those who could not imagine themselves out of existence.

Eternal death is "Gehenna" or the "lake of fire" which is where these ideas are taken from. Gehenna is simply a place where the dead (judged unworthy of life) sleep forever. The lake of fire is the same....what goes in, never comes out. But it is not a literal place because "death and hades" are cast in there as well (Revelation 20:13-14).....it means that they are utterly destroyed. That is what Jesus taught...."And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna." (Matthew 10:28)

Souls (people) are "destroyed" in Gehenna, not tortured. Souls are not immortal...they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The resurrection will indeed be a miracle, as it was in the first century. But as we saw with Israel who witnessed many miracles, it doesn't mean that their impact lasts when human nature takes over. Complacency takes the shine off.

Humans will be who they are regardless....they can pretend for so long but unless their choices are heart felt, they will not last. Life will become routine after a time, and family members stretching back many generations will become "normal".



There is no resurrection to "eternal damnation"...that is a term invented by proponents of the hellfire doctrine. It requires a belief in an immortal, spiritual part of man that departs from the body at death......the Bible has no such teaching, but you will find it in almost all non-Christian religions. It was an adoption that appealed to those who could not imagine themselves out of existence.

Eternal death is "Gehenna" or the "lake of fire" which is where these ideas are taken from. Gehenna is simply a place where the dead (judged unworthy of life) sleep forever. The lake of fire is the same....what goes in, never comes out. But it is not a literal place because "death and hades" are cast in there as well (Revelation 20:13-14).....it means that they are utterly destroyed. That is what Jesus taught...."And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna." (Matthew 10:28)

Souls (people) are "destroyed" in Gehenna, not tortured. Souls are not immortal...they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

What about eternal damnation in this verse?


Mark 3:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

 

[Deeje]

What about eternal damnation in this verse?


Mark 3:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

OK...you need to lose the KJV...one of the worst translations there ever was!

Let me demonstrate.....

ESV..."Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”.

HCSB..."I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”"

NASB..."Amen, I say to you, all sins and all blasphemies that people utter will be forgiven them. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin.”

NET..."I tell you the truth, people will be forgiven for all sins, even all the blasphemies they utter. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

NIV..." Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

There is no "damnation". Jesus confirmed that the incorrigibly wicked are cast into the lake of fire (gehenna) which is "the second death"...a death from which no one awakens....it means, no resurrection.

 

[Nova2216]

OK...you need to lose the KJV...one of the worst translations there ever was!

There is no "damnation". Jesus confirmed that the incorrigibly wicked are cast into the lake of fire (gehenna) which is "the second death"...a death from which no one awakens....it means, no resurrection.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Please notice the word everlasting means the very same thing in each verse above.

Ever how long eternal life exist is how long torment will last.



everlasting
G166

αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Total KJV occurrences: 71


I would like to say the KJV is one of the best translations to use.


(Luke 16:19-31) shows what happens in the afterlife


Also (Jn. 5:28) tells of a ress. for both the good and the bad.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Thanks

 

[Deeje]

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Everlasting death is eternal punishment. Why does God need to do more than eliminate the wicked from existence? The highest penalty under God's Law to Israel was death....not torture. Ancient Israel did not even have jails. There was no incarceration under God's law except being confined to a city of refuge if one was found guilty of an accidental killing. (manslaughter) The offender had the full limits of the city to do as he pleased but he was to remain there until the death of the High Priest, after which time he was released to return home.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Yes Gehenna and the Lake of fire are one and the same place. Whatever goes into this "lake" is destroyed, not tormented. Death and hades are thrown into this lake, so it isn't a literal place.

Please notice the word everlasting means the very same thing in each verse above.

Ever how long eternal life exist is how long torment will last.

Its how long their death will last.....not their torment. God promises everlasting life only to the righteous....in order to consciously torment someone they would need to be alive....but Jesus says in Matthew 10:28 that the wicked are destroyed in gehenna.

I would like to say the KJV is one of the best translations to use.

it is an extraordinarily bad translation for the modern reader. I don't speak archaic English in my every day speech...do you? It is full of badly translated verses. It is always best to check other translations rather than sticking to just one.

(Luke 16:19-31) shows what happens in the afterlife

I am sorry you think so, because it is a parable, given by Jesus among many other parables.
Taken literally it is ridiculous. It is about the Pharisees and the common folk whom they allowed to become "lost"...spiritually malnourished, and judged as unworthy of their time and attention. They changed places when Jesus came because the "lost sheep" accepted him as Messiah but the Pharisees did not....so they lost their favored position with God indicated by the mention of Abraham's bosom and the beggar gained it.

A single drop of water is never going to cool the tongue of someone in a literal fire. It is nonsense to suggest that it is not an illustration.

Also (Jn. 5:28) tells of a ress. for both the good and the bad.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes it does, but it makes a distinction of the difference between them once they come back to life. Both are called from the same place.....their graves.

ESV..."Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

HCSB..."Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come out—those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment."

NASB..."Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

The Greek word for "judgment is "krisis" which Stongs defines as....

1. a separating, sundering, separation
   1. a trial, contest
2. selection
   
   
3. judgment"

The resurrection may well result in some not conforming to God's standards after their restoration to life, but not until they prove unworthy of retaining it. The "judgment" period is a thousand years in length and those who were classed as "unrighteous" are not necessarily wicked....most of them were just ignorant, living at a time or in a place where God and his Christ were not known. They will be provided with an education so that they too can make decisions about their future. Some will merit life and others will prove unworthy.

Jesus is the one who determines who is in hades (the grave) and who is in gehenna....(the place of no return.)
He is the one performing the resurrection. So it isn't up to us to judge, thankfully.

 

[Nova2216]

So the Lord tells a parable to the apostles (Luke 16:19-31). He has the Holy Spirit help them remember the parable according to (Jn 14:26). They record this parable in the NT. The Lord went through all this trouble to get this recorded and you call it ridiculous.

Is that b/c it opposes what you have been taught?


Who am I to believe you or the Lord on (Luke 16:19-31)?


May I ask what version of the bible you use?


Thanks

 

[e.r.m.]

In (John 19:30) Jesus said "it is finished".

Some claim this means man need not do anything to be saved, but then they go on to say you must believe.

Why do I need to believe if Jesus done it all on the cross?

(Jn.19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Please notice that belief is a work according to (Jn. 6:28,29)..

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Friends, belief is a work. That means all those who teach one must believe to be saved is teaching they must do something in order to be saved.


That is not salvation by grace alone.



Thanks

Agreed, because there is no salvation by grace alone in the Bible. That is never stated.
John 4:34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

This is what was finished, Jesus's work.

It sounds like when you're referring to
It is finished, you're filling in what you believe 'it is finished' means.

Jesus finishing "His" work does not absolve us of the expectations He then has of us, including believing in Him.

But I don't know if you're supporting salvation by grace alone or trying to show that it's not true.

 

[Nova2216]

Agreed, because there is no salvation by grace alone in the Bible. That is never stated.
John 4:34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

This is what was finished, Jesus's work.

It sounds like when you're referring to
It is finished, you're filling in what you believe 'it is finished' means.

Jesus finishing "His" work does not absolve us of the expectations He then has of us, including believing in Him.

But I don't know if you're supporting salvation by grace alone or trying to show that it's not true.

Thanks for posting.

I do not support grace alone salvation.

The Ephesians were saved by grace according to (Eph. 2:1-10).

We would need to look at (Acts 19:1-6) to see just how they were saved by Gods grace.

They were actually baptized twice (in water).

1. Once under Johns baptism which was outdated.

2. Then they were baptized under the authority of (Mt 28:18-20) (Acts 2:38) (1Peter 3:21) (1Peter 1:22-23) (Mark 16:15,16).

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38)

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
(Mark 16:16)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth (1Peter 1:22,23).


(Rom.16:16) - The churches of Christ salute you.


Thanks

 

[e.r.m.]

Thanks for posting.

I do not support grace alone salvation.

The Ephesians were saved by grace according to (Eph. 2:1-10).

We would need to look at (Acts 19:1-6) to see just how they were saved by Gods grace.

They were actually baptized twice (in water).

1. Once under Johns baptism which was outdated.

2. Then they were baptized under the authority of (Mt 28:18-20) (Acts 2:38) (1Peter 3:21) (1Peter 1:22-23) (Mark 16:15,16).

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38)

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
(Mark 16:16)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth (1Peter 1:22,23).


(Rom.16:16) - The churches of Christ salute you.


Thanks

Sorry then for assuming. Are you in Churches of Christ?

 

[Nova2216]

Sorry then for assuming. Are you in Churches of Christ?

No need to apologize.

I am a member of the church of Christ. (Rom.16:16)

 

[rrobs]

Agreed, because there is no salvation by grace alone in the Bible. That is never stated.
John 4:34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

This is what was finished, Jesus's work.

It sounds like when you're referring to
It is finished, you're filling in what you believe 'it is finished' means.

Jesus finishing "His" work does not absolve us of the expectations He then has of us, including believing in Him.

But I don't know if you're supporting salvation by grace alone or trying to show that it's not true.

How does that work with:

Eph 2:8,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:​

It sure looks like this is saying that even the ability for us to believe is not within our own selves, that it itself is a gift of God.

Take care.

 

[Nova2216]

Everlasting death is eternal punishment. Why does God need to do more than eliminate the wicked from existence? The highest penalty under God's Law to Israel was death....not torture. Ancient Israel did not even have jails. There was no incarceration under God's law except being confined to a city of refuge if one was found guilty of an accidental killing. (manslaughter) The offender had the full limits of the city to do as he pleased but he was to remain there until the death of the High Priest, after which time he was released to return home.



Yes Gehenna and the Lake of fire are one and the same place. Whatever goes into this "lake" is destroyed, not tormented. Death and hades are thrown into this lake, so it isn't a literal place.



Its how long their death will last.....not their torment. God promises everlasting life only to the righteous....in order to consciously torment someone they would need to be alive....but Jesus says in Matthew 10:28 that the wicked are destroyed in gehenna.



it is an extraordinarily bad translation for the modern reader. I don't speak archaic English in my every day speech...do you? It is full of badly translated verses. It is always best to check other translations rather than sticking to just one.


I am sorry you think so, because it is a parable, given by Jesus among many other parables.
Taken literally it is ridiculous. It is about the Pharisees and the common folk whom they allowed to become "lost"...spiritually malnourished, and judged as unworthy of their time and attention. They changed places when Jesus came because the "lost sheep" accepted him as Messiah but the Pharisees did not....so they lost their favored position with God indicated by the mention of Abraham's bosom and the beggar gained it.

A single drop of water is never going to cool the tongue of someone in a literal fire. It is nonsense to suggest that it is not an illustration.



Yes it does, but it makes a distinction of the difference between them once they come back to life. Both are called from the same place.....their graves.

ESV..."Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

HCSB..."Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come out—those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment."

NASB..."Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

The Greek word for "judgment is "krisis" which Stongs defines as....

1. a separating, sundering, separation
   1. a trial, contest
2. selection
   
   
3. judgment"

The resurrection may well result in some not conforming to God's standards after their restoration to life, but not until they prove unworthy of retaining it. The "judgment" period is a thousand years in length and those who were classed as "unrighteous" are not necessarily wicked....most of them were just ignorant, living at a time or in a place where God and his Christ were not known. They will be provided with an education so that they too can make decisions about their future. Some will merit life and others will prove unworthy.

Jesus is the one who determines who is in hades (the grave) and who is in gehenna....(the place of no return.)
He is the one performing the resurrection. So it isn't up to us to judge, thankfully.

The afterlife is not literal.

 

[Nova2216]

How does that work with:

Eph 2:8,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:​

It sure looks like this is saying that even the ability for us to believe is not within our own selves, that it itself is a gift of God.

Take care.

Check this out.

Is Faith a Gift from God?