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Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

rrobs

Well-Known Member
*
Rob - The Church was a mystery that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul.

Nova - The church (kingdom) was established in (Acts 2) and Paul was not converted till (Acts 9/22/26). The church was in existence long BEFORE Paul became a Christian.

Well, as I've said many times, the apostles did not instantly know the fullness of what they received on the day of Pentecost. The change was so drastic that it would be totally unreasonable to expect them to know everything.

It was at Pentecost that the Gentiles were made joint heirs with the Jews. But obviously Peter did not realize that. He still thought that the Jews were the chosen people. He had know that for 3,000+ years!

If Peter knew about the mystery, why did he argue with God about going to see the Gentile Cornelius? He was ignorant of the mystery! The mystery was in play, but the early apostles learned about it, not in one fell swoop, but over time. In other words, Acts is a book of transition as I said many times.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Again, I must ask two things because you seem to have a different meaning for some words than I do. I do not know what "translated" means as to a person. One can translate a word to another language but do you translate a person? Can anyone say with certainty what it means? And I see in Acts 2 that Jesus added to the church but I do not see anything that says the church and the kingdom are the same. I think you are stretching words to make them match your beliefs. That is not proof.
In (Mt.16:18) we read the following words.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:

Here the words "CHURCH" and "KINGDOM" are used interchangeably.

then Jesus says He will give Peter the "KEYS" to the KINGDOM.

Jesus was not going to build one thing (the church) and give Peter the KEYS to something else (the kingdom).

In (Acts 2:36-47) we see Peter using the "KEYS" (words) to open the kingdom up so people could enter it.

The Kingdom and the church are one in the same thing.

All the saved are located in the church (kingdom) (Acts 2:38,47).



TRANSLATE

When one obeys the gospel the Lord translates that individual into the kingdom according to (Col.1:13).

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Col.1:13).



Thanks for asking bible questions
 
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e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Well, as I've said many times, the apostles did not instantly know the fullness of what they received on the day of Pentecost. The change was so drastic that it would be totally unreasonable to expect them to know everything.

It was at Pentecost that the Gentiles were made joint heirs with the Jews. But obviously Peter did not realize that. He still thought that the Jews were the chosen people. He had know that for 3,000+ years!

If Peter knew about the mystery, why did he argue with God about going to see the Gentile Cornelius? He was ignorant of the mystery! The mystery was in play, but the early apostles learned about it, not in one fell swoop, but over time. In other words, Acts is a book of transition as I said many times.
This argument does not hold water for the reasons I've stated many times.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Nope!

But what they did know was correct.

What they did not know was given to them when needed according to (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13).

Mt 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
(Mt.10:20)
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
In (Mt.16:18) we read the following words.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:

Here the words "CHURCH" and "KINGDOM" are used interchangeably.

then Jesus says He will give Peter the "KEYS" to the KINGDOM.

Jesus was not going to build one thing (the church) and give Peter the KEYS to something else (the kingdom).

In (Acts 3:36-47) we see Peter using the "KEYS" (words) to open the kingdom up so people could enter it.

The Kingdom and the church are one in the same thing.

All the saved are located in the church (kingdom) (Acts 2:38,47).



TRANSLATE

When one obeys the gospel the Lord translates that individual into the kingdom according to (Col.1:13).

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Col.1:13).



Thanks for asking bible questions
OK. I am a businessman and I want to start a new business. So I call in one of my best workers and tell him I am going to build my new company on him. Then I add that I am giving him the keys to my car. That does not mean that the new business and my car are the same thing. I believe Jesus will set up the kingdom on earth when he returns and raises believers from their graves to new spiritual life. They will then be born again.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
OK. I am a businessman and I want to start a new business. So I call in one of my best workers and tell him I am going to build my new company on him. Then I add that I am giving him the keys to my car. That does not mean that the new business and my car are the same thing. I believe Jesus will set up the kingdom on earth when he returns and raises believers from their graves to new spiritual life. They will then be born again.
Why then, would Jesus give Peter the keys to His kingdom after He returns and raises believers from their graves to new spiritual life? It would break the whole flow of the sentence and He would not have explained this, ever!
Nova2216's explanation is more sound.

Colossians 1:13-14 is spot on, as it speaks of us being translated into the kingdom in past present tense, not future tense

hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
 
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Nova2216

Active Member
OK. I am a businessman and I want to start a new business. So I call in one of my best workers and tell him I am going to build my new company on him. Then I add that I am giving him the keys to my car. That does not mean that the new business and my car are the same thing. I believe Jesus will set up the kingdom on earth when he returns and raises believers from their graves to new spiritual life. They will then be born again.


Notice (Mark 9:1).

That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.


some of them that stand here

shall not taste of death,

till they have seen the kingdom of God come

with power.


This establishes the timeline for WHEN the kingdom was established. It was within the lifetime of some of the apostles.

The kingdom was to be established with POWER.

We see that POWER in (Acts 2:1-4).

In (Luke 24:47-49) Jesus told THE APOSTLES to go TO JERUSALEM to and WAIT for the POWER to come upon THEM.

The book of Acts is actually an extension of the book of Luke.


In (Acts 1:5,8) - John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence... 8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

We see this POWER coming on the apostles (not the 120) in (Acts 2:1-4).


Notice (Acts 2:14).

...But Peter, standing up with the eleven, (not the 120)



Thanks
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
This argument does not hold water for the reasons I've stated many times.
What, exactly, is wrong with what I said? How do you explain Peter's argument with God in Acts 11:7-8?

"If Peter knew about the mystery, why did he argue with God about going to see the Gentile Cornelius? He was ignorant of the mystery! The mystery was in play, but the early apostles learned about it, not in one fell swoop, but over time."​
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
This argument does not hold water for the reasons I've stated many times.
Gal 2:11,

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Why did Paul have to correct Peter? According to you, Peter would have known everything about the new administration in one fell swoop.

The Bible is about real people, who do real things. In no real world would the impact of such a great event as the day of Pentecost be instantly understood. You are taking a real account of real people and making it into a fairy tale. Your view does not accord with reality or the scriptures.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Seldom do I bother reading them. As you said, they are not the words of God that have been purified 7 times. While they may be helpful at times, they are certainly not our standard of truth.


KJV, with the understanding that it has been transcribed from other transcriptions and is therefore not really the original God breathed word. Sometimes we have to use the original language to get closer to the original document.


No way do I agree with that. Since when have we cut off all idols and they are no longer remembered? You are mixing up the Kingdom God promised Israel with the Church. The Church was a mystery that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul.

Col 1:26,

[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now [in Paul's day] is made manifest to his saints:
Hidden means Zechariah didn't know about it, so he could not have said anything about it.

Besides, Zech 13:1 shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is talking about Israel, not the Gentiles, and certainly not the Church of the Body of Christ which didn't even exist at that time. Christians need to stop reading other people's mail and acting as though it were addressed to themselves. It's got somebody else's address on it!

If you somehow read a letter written to me from the Department of Motor Vehicles telling me I need to send $1,200 for my registration renewal, would you send them your money? Don't think you would. You can learn that I owe $1,200, but you would not be responsible to pay it just because you read the letter. Same with Zechariah. It was not written to you. Your letters are in the books of Romans through Thessalonians. Those are the main books that define the doctrine of our day and time. It is radically different than that of the Jews in the days of Zechariah.


Zechariah did not know about Christianity. Learn about the mystery that was kept hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul (Rom 16:25-26, et. al.), and you will understand that he had to have been talking about the final fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, the events outlined in the book of Revelation.


How does unity of faith explain 10,000+ denominations? Sorry, but I don't think we will have that unity until we all know as we are known (1 Cor 13:12).

Like yourself, I don't believe that "perfect" refers to just Jesus. It is more encompassing and refers to a new revelation, to the new heavens and new earth which really will be "perfect." As I said above, 10,000+ denominations is hardly a sign we have arrived at perfection.

When all the evidence is considered, it becomes clear that Zechariah was not talking about our present day of grace, but of the time when God will restore the kingdom He promised to Israel.

What do you make of this:

1Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

What is it about the mystery that, had the devil known about it, he would not have killed Jesus? Hint:

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

When Jesus was here the devil had one Jesus to deal with. But now, wherever there is a born again believer, there is Jesus. Now he has to deal with tens of millions of Christs! Of course if he can keep the church ignorant of the mystery, he can continue having his way. Looks like he did a pretty good job of it. Most people I talk to about the mystery aren't very receptive. Those that do listen suddenly see the scriptures open to them in a way that is simply not possible without having an intimate knowledge of the mystery. It's "what's happening" in this day and age of grace, but sadly we are stuck at Jesus and him crucified.

1Cor 2:2, 6-8,

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Continuing in the same vein, Paul then said,

1Cor 3:1-4,

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?​

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
A modern day version of verse 4: "I am of Martin Luther, I am of Joseph Smith, I am of John Calvin, I am of Pope John....." That is precisely why the churches by and large can't get past Jesus Christ and him crucified. I don't think I've ever heard a sermon on the mystery taught on Sunday morning. Have you? The reason is simple, the church is divided and therefore carnal.

What do you see behind virtually every altar in every church today? Jesus, and him crucified! It's a terrible witness to bring others to the fullness of what God accomplished through his dear son, Jesus Christ. It's milk. They just leave him hanging there while apparently neglecting what happened after God raised him from the dead. Corinthians is as true today as it was when Paul was first inspired to write it.



Rob - The Church was a mystery that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul.

Nova - The church (kingdom) was established in (Acts 2) and Paul was not converted till (Acts 9/22/26). The church was in existence long BEFORE Paul became a Chrstian.

Do you realize this?

How could Paul have kept the Mystery about the church when the church was established long before Paul was a Christian?

That does not make any sense.



Rob - and you will understand that he had to have been talking about the final fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, the events outlined in the book of Revelation.

Nova - Ever read (Joshua 21:43)?

Jos 21:43 ¶ And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos. 23:14 that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

The Jews inhabited the land promised to them long ago.

They got all the Lord promised them during the OT period.

...not one thing hath failed thereof. (Joshua 23:14)


Rob - How does unity of faith explain 10,000+ denominations?

Nova - The unity of the faith refers to the completed written law of God (NT) (2Peter 1:3) (2TIm.3:16,17) (Jas.1:25).

It (the NT) was finished in the first century when there was only one church. check out - (Muratorian Fragment)

It would be very smart to learn which church that was and be involved with it (Rom.16:16).

The unity of the faith (the NT) OPPOSES all denominational creeds and the very existence of all denominations (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16).
 

Nova2216

Active Member
One can only be unified with the Faith if they believe and teach that which harmonizes with the written word of God (1Peter 4:11) (Jn 5:39).

I know denominations oppose the word of God b/c they all have creed books separate and apart from the bible.

(Deut.4:2) (Rev.22:18,19) (1Cor.4:6)
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Why then, would Jesus give Peter the keys to His kingdom after He returns and raises believers from their graves to new spiritual life? It would break the whole flow of the sentence and He would not have explained this, ever!
Nova2216's explanation is more sound.

Colossians 1:13-14 is spot on, as it speaks of us being translated into the kingdom in past present tense, not future tense

hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
John 18:30 My kingdom is not of this worls. I Cor 15:50 Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. The church is certainly in this world and millions of flesh and blood people go there each week. How can the church and the kingdom be the same thing?
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Finding the Right Answer to the Right Question

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

(excerpt)

How should a sinner react to the gift of salvation freely offered by Jesus? What is man’s appropriate response to learning about the crucified Creator and Savior of the world?

Man’s sin, along with God’s grace and sovereignty, should drive every person to ask a most foundational (and logical) question: “What does God want me to do?” If Jesus is my Creator; if He has all authority in heaven and on Earth; and if He is the only Savior of mankind, what does He want me to do?


Read more here.

Finding the Right Answer to the Right Question
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Notice (Mark 9:1).

That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.


some of them that stand here

shall not taste of death,

till they have seen the kingdom of God come

with power.


This establishes the timeline for WHEN the kingdom was established. It was within the lifetime of some of the apostles.

The kingdom was to be established with POWER.

We see that POWER in (Acts 2:1-4).

In (Luke 24:47-49) Jesus told THE APOSTLES to go TO JERUSALEM to and WAIT for the POWER to come upon THEM.

The book of Acts is actually an extension of the book of Luke.


In (Acts 1:5,8) - John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence... 8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

We see this POWER coming on the apostles (not the 120) in (Acts 2:1-4).


Notice (Acts 2:14).

...But Peter, standing up with the eleven, (not the 120)



Thanks
None of that specifically says the church and the kingdom are the same.And consider verses like - 2 Samuel 22:3 and 22:47 Dueteronomy 32:15 Isaiah 30:29 Psalm 31:1-3 Psalm 28:1 Psalm 92:15 and many more They all refer to Jesus or the Lord or God as being "the Rock". No verse specifically says Peter is the Rock. Jesus simply says that he is speaking to Peter and says he will build his church on this rock. He does not tell Peter "I am building my church on you" Or, "Peter, you are the rock I am building my church on". In view of all the other verses that call Jesus the Rock it seems there
is only a small chance Jesus is calling Peter the rock.You say it does because you want to believe is does or you have been taught that it does. The majority of evidence says otherwise.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Rob - The Church was a mystery that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul.

Nova - The church (kingdom) was established in (Acts 2) and Paul was not converted till (Acts 9/22/26). The church was in existence long BEFORE Paul became a Chrstian.

Do you realize this?

How could Paul have kept the Mystery about the church when the church was established long before Paul was a Christian?

That does not make any sense.
It is true that the mystery was in play before God revealed it to Paul, but until he did reveal it to Paul, nobody knew! Why is that so difficult to comprehend? It's how life works.

Did God first reveal the mystery to Peter? Thomas? James? None of these guys. Paul was the first to learn of the mystery and he learned about it some time after the mystery was in effect. It's just like all Christians have the power of holy spirit within, but most do not know that, and therefore do not do the works Jesus did.

Like I've been saying all along, the change was very drastic and it is not real life that anybody would have known everything about it in an instant. It took time. Acts is a transition book that covers that time of new discovery. Acts is a book about real life and real people. To say that the people instantly grasped the multifaceted greatness of the new birth in an instant makes it into a fairy tale.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Well, I have to admit I can't say you vacillate. You are pretty consistent in not answering directly to much of what I write and tell me I vacillate instead.

Seriously though, from the idea I was trying to get across, all you could do was to pick up on my use of one little word, as if you don't understand what I'm saying?

You know darn well I am right about babies. If not, offer me another solution, but don't go agreeing with the devil in Genesis 3:4 and tell me the baby went to heaven to be with God. That's the same lie that got us into this mess.



Rob - ROB - You are pretty consistent in not answering directly to much of what I write and tell me I vacillate instead. Seriously though, from the idea I was trying to get across, all you could do was to pick up on my use of one little word, as if you don't understand what I'm saying?

Nova - I answer you with scriptures and not my thoughts. Does that puzzle you?

I understand your arguments well. I have heard them for years. The problem is they are not what the bible says.

It's always my hope people will see the scriptures and come to the realization that their position is not in harmony with Gods word.



Babies

(Ezekiel 18:20-24) (Ps.139:14)

Ps 139:14 - I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made:

Ezek.18: 20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
None of that specifically says the church and the kingdom are the same.And consider verses like - 2 Samuel 22:3 and 22:47 Dueteronomy 32:15 Isaiah 30:29 Psalm 31:1-3 Psalm 28:1 Psalm 92:15 and many more They all refer to Jesus or the Lord or God as being "the Rock". No verse specifically says Peter is the Rock. Jesus simply says that he is speaking to Peter and says he will build his church on this rock. He does not tell Peter "I am building my church on you" Or, "Peter, you are the rock I am building my church on". In view of all the other verses that call Jesus the Rock it seems there
is only a small chance Jesus is calling Peter the rock.You say it does because you want to believe is does or you have been taught that it does. The majority of evidence says otherwise.


I am not saying Jesus built His church upon Peter.

It seems you are mixing me up with another person.
 
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