Jesus' sacrifice - what was the point?

[Desert Snake]

The Isaiah passage that is read in Christian churches at Christmas (as having to do with Jesus) do not have to do with Jesus. It isn't a prophecy, so need not be argued. It's just used. Incorrectly. Scholars know what that passage refers to and it's not about Jesus. Again, CONTEXT.

If it's not a prophecy then what does it refer to ? I dont have a Bible handy, can you quote it? That would be appreciated.

 

[*Deleted*]

It's Isaiah 53. The suffering servant is Israel. It's important to read the chapters right around that chapter too.

 

[Desert Snake]

It's Isaiah 53. The suffering servant is Israel. It's important to read the chapters right around that chapter too.

Thanks. I think we're pretty off topic, so maybe a verse thread could be started or something.

 

[*Deleted*]

OK. I also can get more specific (and accurate) academic information later.

 

[sojourner]

Okay so if those who don't believe in Jesus "perish" what do you think people who do believe in Jesus get? If its anything other than death then how is death not a punishment for not believing?

What John means by "perish" is probably far more metaphoric than literal. If Jesus came to bring abundant life, those who don't follow him do not participate in that abundant life and, therefore, experience somewhat of a spiritual death.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus did not make any sacrifice that any other person has not made or soon will. He died.

...Like you're in any kind of position to make that call with any authority...

 

[sojourner]

So? Judaism grew outside of Israel too. My point was the New Testament is written by Jews (except for Luke and Acts)---St. Paul lived a Jew and died a Jew, just as Jesus did. The time that Jesus lived in was one of non Hebrew/Jewish influences anyway. It was the Hellenistic period. Paul was totally a Hellenistic Jew. So when we read the New Testament as Christian against Jew today, we are reading it all wrong. We're ignoring CONTEXT.

You're forgetting the non-Pauline epistles. They weren't written by Jews. In fact, Paul isn't even preaching from the Jewish context. His epistles take on a distinct, Gentile tone. The CONTEXT is that, by the time the stories were written down and Paul wrote his letters, Xy had already become changed by the Gentile perspective.

 

[Storm]

I don't see the point of Jesus' sacrifice. It doesn't make any sense, for the following reasons.

1) How can someone dying eliminate my responsibility for the errors Ive made in my life?

2) Why do Christians say, 'Jesus died for you', when he was resurrected three days later, and some people think he was alive even for those three days. Thats not really dying. Its just being killed but then given a better body. Plus, since Jesus supposedly knew he was going to be resurrected and alive and well, being perhaps the second or third most powerful lifeform in the cosmos, that certainly takes away from the whole drama of dying. If someone told me, 'youll suffer for a few days and die. But then Ill give you a better body and you will be one of the most powerful beings in the cosmos for all eternity!', Id say that would be a pretty good deal. So, in other words, Im saying the whole sacrifice idea isnt much of a sacrifice at all when you think about it.

3) If you really hold something against someone, why not just forgive them, instead of cutting yourself or having someone sacrificed? I dont see why torture has to come into the picture. Its rather sick, actually. Truth is, in modern society such a person may even be put in a straight jacket in an attempt to keep him from killing or harming himself.

I see this as just another absurd claim of Christianity, something I comfortably dismiss as superstitious nonsense, along with the rest of the ridiculous claims of this religion.

Are you interested in hearing my bizarre, panentheistc, neopagan-rooted explanation?

 

[sojourner]

fallingblood,

We have no idea whatsoever regarding what Jesus was thinking when he ran into trouble with the Romans and with some of the high level Jews who were in cohoots with the Roman gov't. You wrote that Jesus entered into "it" knowing full well what he was doing. How do you know that? We have nothing to go on except the WRITERS' views. And they had their own views for a reason like writers do. So far as I know we haven't found anything that we known has been written by Jesus himself telling us his motives and thoughts. We have only "story" and interpretations by others who had their own agendas and story of the story.

And since the "story" is the only thing we have, that becomes the CONTEXT and it also becomes our point of reference for argument. Blind conjecture is worth absolutely nothing.

 

[sojourner]

The Isaiah passage that is read in Christian churches at Christmas (as having to do with Jesus) do not have to do with Jesus. It isn't a prophecy, so need not be argued. It's just used. Incorrectly. Scholars know what that passage refers to and it's not about Jesus. Again, CONTEXT.

You're right here with two exceptions: First of all, it is prophecy, because Isaiah is a prophetic writing. Second, the prophecy, itself, does not refer to Jesus, but Xians, through hindsight, recognize Jesus as the messiah to whom Isaiah is pointing, even if Isaiah didn't recognize him.

 

[839311]

Are you interested in hearing my bizarre, panentheistc, neopagan-rooted explanation?

:yes:

 

[Storm]

:yes:

YAY!

OK, I have two explanations:
1) What I actually believe: Jesus was an Avatar*, come to break the Jews out of their legalism. Had nothing whatsoever to do with the actual God of the Jews, hereafter called El for the sake of clarity.

2) Assuming 1 is incorrect (because thought experiments are fun! :drool, and Jesus was actually sent by El, why did He need to sacrifice Himself to Himself to change the rules He made in the first place?

Because El is not God. El is a sidhe-deity*, and bound by the rules of such beings. To rewrite the rules of His covenant would be a Herculean feat of magic, requiring an unimaginably strong power source. One of the strongest generators of magical power is blood/ death. However, it's also one of the most unstable and easily tainted. An immense blood sacrifice was required, but an unwilling one would taint the "juice" and warp the shaping. So, what's a deity to do? Create the perfect sacrificial lamb. El incarnated a piece of Himself to be said perfect sacrifice.

Weird eough for ya? LOL

* Explanations can be found here.

 

[839311]

Weird eough for ya? LOL

:yes:

 

[Storm]

:yes:

Hee, I thought it might be!

Questions/ comments? )(

 

[839311]

Questions/ comments?

El incarnated a piece of Himself to be said perfect sacrifice.

But did he, also, use magical crystals to supercharge the piece of himself to be used as a sacrificial lamb/blood/death magical offering? Because, as Im sure your aware, if he didn't then his offering would be liable to a channel surge which could have devastating effects on his soul's karma.

An immense blood sacrifice was required, but an unwilling one would taint the "juice" and warp the shaping

What if Jesus was unwilling, as one might think he was according to his dying words of 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?' What effect would 'tainted juice' and warped shaping really have in this situation?

 

[fallingblood]

fallingblood,

We have no idea whatsoever regarding what Jesus was thinking when he ran into trouble with the Romans and with some of the high level Jews who were in cohoots with the Roman gov't. You wrote that Jesus entered into "it" knowing full well what he was doing. How do you know that? We have nothing to go on except the WRITERS' views. And they had their own views for a reason like writers do. So far as I know we haven't found anything that we known has been written by Jesus himself telling us his motives and thoughts. We have only "story" and interpretations by others who had their own agendas and story of the story.

Jesus being a religious figure, who preached about the coming of the Kingdom of God, would have known that a possible outcome would have been death. He definitely would have heard about others going down similar paths as he did. He would have known first hand about his mentor John the Baptist dying for teaching the same thing.

Jesus would have known what he was doing. He may not have fully believed that he would die, but he would have known that was a possibility. And he would definitely have known that going up against Rome (which he was doing by preaching about the Kingdom of God) would have the very real possibility of death.

 

[Storm]

But did he, also, use magical crystals to supercharge the piece of himself to be used as a sacrificial lamb/blood/death magical offering? Because, as Im sure your aware, if he didn't then his offering would be liable to a channel surge which could have devastating effects on his soul's karma.

Hey you asked, I answered. Thought it would liven up the discussion.

What if Jesus was unwilling, as one might think he was according to his dying words of 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?'

Willingness does not imply that it was easy. Jesus chose His path. He stayed in Gethsemane, knowing what He faced.

What effect would 'tainted juice' and warped shaping really have in this situation?

Totally unpredictable, but almost always bad. Best case scenario, it just doesn't work.

 

[839311]

Hey you asked, I answered. Thought it would liven up the discussion.

dont be sad Storm. Thats what I was trying to do myself.

Totally unpredictable, but almost always bad. Best case scenario, it just doesn't work.

Worst case scenario? And a few in-between examples?

 

[Storm]

dont be sad Storm. Thats what I was trying to do myself.

Oh, you were just teasing? :sorry1:

Worst case scenario? And a few in-between examples?

Hmmm.... one that springs to mind would be that Jesus took vengeance and the faithful got Hell instead of Paradise.

In-between... the power backlash kills El.

 

[839311]

Oh, you were just teasing? :sorry1:

:yes: All in good fun

Hmmm.... one that springs to mind would be that Jesus took vengeance and the faithful got Hell instead of Paradise.

Whoa! I think I may like your religion even less than the Abrahamic ones. But I dont know enough about it to go that far. That doesn't sound very nice, though. The faithful might have gotten hell?! How does that work? Did they deserve it?