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Jesus' sacrifice - what was the point?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” It is obvious from this statement, that Jesus had expected some other outcome, different from the one that occured. Jesus does not say "have you abandoned me", he says "why have you abandoned me". He knew that God had abandoned him.
Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 -- not so unusual for one to quote scripture in time of stress...
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The point of it is to fool people who don't know any better into believing Jesus was the fulfillment of all sorts of prophecies, most of which have nothing to do with each other, if they're prophecies to begin with.

Smoke and mirrors.

It's all for the sake of convenience.

Need Jesus to be the passover lamb? Kill him on passover.
Need to wipe away original sin (a concept that doesn't exist in Judaism... it had to be invented by Christians to give people a reason why they need to be "saved")... kill him.
Need him to be the suffering servant who was pierced? (Which is absolute nonsense, for reasons elaborated on in the "Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?" thread) Crucify him, and write the narrative to reflect the words of the prophets as closely as possible.

It's meant to impress people who don't know any better so that they are led to believe Jesus was all kinds of wonderful and that he's the key to your eternal bliss after you're dead.
Your explanation seems reasonable on the surface, until we realize that it's nothing more than a straw man.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It's ironic that you say that... because the point is, Jesus' sacrifice is itself a strawman.
Why? What do you think it was supposed to mean? I certainly don't think it "took away our sins." I'm not into the whole substitutionary atonement thing. I think his death is meaningful only to the extent that he showed he was willing to stick to his guns, die for what was important, and stand with us in solidarity through human suffering. Not such a straw man, I think.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Kind of unusual to quote scripture that summons imagery of forsaken-ness when presumably being in the situation that fulfills his alleged God given purpose.
Not really. he was, after all, fully human. Even the Hebrew texts are full of lament, even when the sufferer was in the situation to which (s)he was called...
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
I don't see the point of Jesus' sacrifice. It doesn't make any sense, for the following reasons.

1) How can someone dying eliminate my responsibility for the errors Ive made in my life?

2) Why do Christians say, 'Jesus died for you', when he was resurrected three days later, and some people think he was alive even for those three days. Thats not really dying. Its just being killed but then given a better body. Plus, since Jesus supposedly knew he was going to be resurrected and alive and well, being perhaps the second or third most powerful lifeform in the cosmos, that certainly takes away from the whole drama of dying. If someone told me, 'youll suffer for a few days and die. But then Ill give you a better body and you will be one of the most powerful beings in the cosmos for all eternity!', Id say that would be a pretty good deal. So, in other words, Im saying the whole sacrifice idea isnt much of a sacrifice at all when you think about it.

3) If you really hold something against someone, why not just forgive them, instead of cutting yourself or having someone sacrificed? I dont see why torture has to come into the picture. Its rather sick, actually. Truth is, in modern society such a person may even be put in a straight jacket in an attempt to keep him from killing or harming himself.

I see this as just another absurd claim of Christianity, something I comfortably dismiss as superstitious nonsense, along with the rest of the ridiculous claims of this religion.

A... genda. :D

It's all about the Paul. By embodying the Holy Spirit of the prophets in a singular, perfect body; then sacrificing that body "for all man's sins," he acquired an evangelical message of "human spirituality" from the Jews that could be pimped to the Gentile without a bunch of law. ;) Romans 'splain it all.

And the funny thing is, Original Sin was long since repealed, in Ecclesiastes, for one... but you know them Gentiles, buy a penny for a quarter, put the proper spin to it. :D
 

anthony55

Member
Jesus' sacrifice - what was the point?


Heb 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

It was to put away the sins of His People !

Eph 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

1 Cor 5:7

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1) How can someone dying eliminate my responsibility for the errors Ive made in my life?

Because Christ was the Surety for God's People. Heb 7:22

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

God viewed His chosen People and Christ as one legally because They were Chosen in Him as He the Head, and they His body, and the Head is legally responsible for what the body does.

He was the Shepherd, they the sheep. If a herd of sheep get away and destroy someone's property, the liability of those damages belong to the Shepherd of the Sheep. You see, the Law has a right to seek reparation from the Shepherd of the Sheep.
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
It does though. Because then it isn't God sacrificing himself to himself. So if Jesus is not God, then God is not sacrificing himself. More so, Jesus had a choice. He did not have to go along with any plan. So it isn't even God sacrificing someone. It was Jesus sacrificing himself.
It isn't a punishment. Looking back, I misquoted Paul. He stated that the wages of sin are death. He also states that everyone has sinned. So, everyone dies.

Some may be awarded later, but that doesn't mean everyone else is punished. They die. That is life. It isn't a punishment, it is a fact.

Alright. Now that I've gotten a taste of your theology, I'll rewrite my original scathing statement for your brand:

God [sent his son] to sacrifice himself to himself in one place at one time to a few ancient people in order to create something that if believed in gives God a reason to not [obliterate you from existence] since that is what he thinks you deserve for being the way he created you. Makes perfect sense.

I didn't have to change much......
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Alright. Now that I've gotten a taste of your theology, I'll rewrite my original scathing statement for your brand:

God [sent his son] to sacrifice himself to himself in one place at one time to a few ancient people in order to create something that if believed in gives God a reason to not [obliterate you from existence] since that is what he thinks you deserve for being the way he created you. Makes perfect sense.

I didn't have to change much......
Actually you do. Jesus never sacrificed himself to himself. Jesus chose to sacrifice himself for the betterment of others.

It wasn't for a few ancient people. It was for mankind. Huge difference.

Nothing was really created. And it didn't give God a reason not to obliterate people from existence. If you read the OT, you will see that there were different ways to salvation. You will also find the idea that there was no after life. All you show is that you have not actually read the texts in question.

As for God believing that is what people deserve, there simply is no evidence for that. That is simply an ignorant statement based nothing more on your preconceived notions.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Why? What do you think it was supposed to mean? I certainly don't think it "took away our sins." I'm not into the whole substitutionary atonement thing. I think his death is meaningful only to the extent that he showed he was willing to stick to his guns, die for what was important, and stand with us in solidarity through human suffering. Not such a straw man, I think.

It didn't mean anything.
 

Jacksnyte

Reverend
God sacrifices himself to himself in one place at one time to a few ancient people in order to create something that if believed in gives him a reason to not torture you forever since that is what he thinks you deserve for being the way he created you. Makes perfect sense.

Ayee-min, bruthah! Preech own!
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
No, it is based on what a minority believe that is not supported by their religious texts.


Any proof that these Christians are a "minority"? Because every Christian I have encountered in 5 states believes this and I have been to ALOT of Churches. I would like to know what reasons you have for believing this isn't a common belief amongst Christians.

Also, John 3:16 says "He who believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Do you think when it says "perish" it meant to live in peace with butterfly lillies?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Any proof that these Christians are a "minority"? Because every Christian I have encountered in 5 states believes this and I have been to ALOT of Churches. I would like to know what reasons you have for believing this isn't a common belief amongst Christians.

Also, John 3:16 says "He who believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Do you think when it says "perish" it meant to live in peace with butterfly lillies?
Perish, in context, means die. That is all. Not a punishment, a fact of life.

As for proof that this is not the majority belief, it is neither the official Catholic belief, or official ELCA belief. Baptists also don't subscribe to that belief. Those are the largest denominations in the United States.

Also, going to a handful of churches proves nothing. Especially if they are fringe churches.
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
No, it is based on what a minority believe that is not supported by their religious texts.

Although it may not represent an accurate cross section, both my experience on the internet and in person is completely the opposite of what you insist in this statement. And to add to that, almost everything you have said so far about your interpretations (one of what you might as well round to infinite) I have never heard before in my life.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Perish, in context, means die. That is all. Not a punishment, a fact of life.

As for proof that this is not the majority belief, it is neither the official Catholic belief, or official ELCA belief. Baptists also don't subscribe to that belief. Those are the largest denominations in the United States.

Also, going to a handful of churches proves nothing. Especially if they are fringe churches.


Okay so if those who don't believe in Jesus "perish" what do you think people who do believe in Jesus get? If its anything other than death then how is death not a punishment for not believing?
 
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