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Jesus sacrifice is completely pointless

cambridge79

Active Member
Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed ( temporarily ) in order to follow him?
Of course we dont. We just need a just man that talks sense possibly with a bit of charisma. We follow all sort of people for all sorts of reasons all the time why would be different for him.

Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to recognize him as the son of god?
People may say nobody would have followed him without that sacrifice, well Muhammad didn't sacrifice himself and more than one and a half billions people follow him. And apparently he worked for the same god too.

Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to see he is the son of god?
I say we dont. That guy according to the gospels already did all sort of miracles, walked on water, multiplied food, exorcised people, gave back the sight to blind people even freakin raised a dead person. What s the point of one more act of magic after all of that, especially of such gory nature?

Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to recognize him as the son of god?
Only true reason is that it would fulfill a prophecy present in the bible and since the bible is god inspired than why put that particular prophecy there in first place than? Simply tell he would be able to fly for example and than have him fly over the temple. I guarantee it would be more than enough. No need to torture and kill him.

Does a man really need to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to be the son of god?
I ve always heard god is so great because he incarnated in order to experience first hand our human condition but that is pointless cause god by definition already knows everything. Its like me rolling naked in the snow to experience cold. I already know cold, dont need to do that.

Does a man really need to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to be the son of god?
That would simply align with the tradition of scapegoating that god himself set up in first place, which again makes no sense.

Again however I see it the idea of Jesus suffering on the cross seems completely unnecessary and pointless and absolutely doesn't look like the best plan the most wise and just being in the universe can come up with to send us a message.
 
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psychoslice

Veteran Member
Of course it was pointless, but saying that, I feel that the sacrifice should be our sacrifice, when we realize that we are not just this mind body organism, that we are One with the Cosmos, this is when we let go of our illusion and then live more freely, realizing that we have no free will, that the Cosmos is actually doing the living through us, what a relief that is.
 

Thana

Lady
Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed ( temporarily ) in order to follow him?
Of course we dont. We just need a just man that talks sense possibly with a bit of charisma. We follow all sort of people for all sorts of reasons all the time why would be different for him.

Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to recognize him as the son of god?
People may say nobody would have followed him without that sacrifice, well Muhammad didn't sacrifice himself and more than one and a half billions people follow him. And apparently he worked for the same god too.

Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to see he is the son of god?
I say we dont. That guy according to the gospels already did all sort of miracles, walked on water, multiplied food, exorcised people, gave back the sight to blind people even freakin raised a dead person. What s the point of one more act of magic after all of that, especially of such gory nature?

Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to recognize him as the son of god?
Only true reason is that it would fulfill a prophecy present in the bible and since the bible is god inspired than why put that particular prophecy there in first place than? Simply tell he would be able to fly for example and than have him fly over the temple. I guarantee it would be more than enough. No need to torture and kill him.

Does a man really need to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to be the son of god?
I ve always heard god is so great because he incarnated in order to experience first hand our human condition but that is pointless cause god by definition already knows everything. Its like me rolling naked in the snow to experience cold. I already know cold, dont need to do that.

Does a man really need to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to be the son of god?
That would simply align with the tradition of scapegoating that god himself set up in first place, which again makes no sense.

Again however I see it the idea of Jesus suffering on the cross seems completely unnecessary and pointless and absolutely doesn't look like the best plan the most wise and just being in the universe can come up with to send us a message.

It's weird how some people make it necessary to remind them that just because they don't understand something doesn't mean it can't be understood and that others haven't already done so.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
It's weird how some people make it necessary to remind them that just because they don't understand something doesn't mean it can't be understood and that others haven't already done so.

I won't deny you the right to mock my ignorance but it's a bit pointless if you dont want to share a bit of your wisdom in exchange so feel free to provide your view on the subject unless you're afraid it couldn't stand the forum scrutiny
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I just wrote this. so you get it because your asking for it.



People forget.

Hellenist who were being Proselytized were already worshipping the Emperor as "son of god" They had to build a better story and legend and mythology then a corrupt politician.

What made jesus different then just a powerful myth, is that he actually died and was crucified fighting the corrupt politicians in his time.

So this death was perceived as a selfless sacrifice, and the man paid the ultimate price no politician would, the most horrible death of that time period. All for the good of the people.

This martyrdom was so important to early followers they built the man to be much more, because to them he was more then just a man. And his story lived on, and it grew.

It was not long and his story so powerful, it took a life of its own, and not long after his legend and growing theology was competing against the Emperor himself.

Amazing to go from a student of Johns 1 to 3 years previously, being an Aramaic Galilean peasant, then to compete against the emperors divinity. Its an amazing real true life story.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Again however I see it the idea of Jesus suffering on the cross seems completely unnecessary and pointless and absolutely doesn't look like the best plan the most wise and just being in the universe can come up with to send us a message.

You need to know the history to understand why this sacrifice was so important to so many.

Also timing was right.

The wood had been stacked up in a pile ready for a match, jesus was that match that lit the bonfire.

Hellenist had perverted Judaism for centuries, and the one all powerful god was increasing in popularity all over the Diaspora, many wanted to become Jews but did not want the laws and customs. They had been practicing Judaism light and would not fully convert for a few hundreds years before Jesus.

Jesus sacrifice gave the Hellenist a new way to follow the one god and ditch the corrupt Emperor. These Proselyte's well versed in Judaism laid the ground work for in Judaism light to accept gentiles everywhere into this monotheistic theology that was growing in popularity.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
I just wrote this. so you get it because your asking for it.



People forget.

Hellenist who were being Proselytized were already worshipping the Emperor as "son of god" They had to build a better story and legend and mythology then a corrupt politician.

What made jesus different then just a powerful myth, is that he actually died and was crucified fighting the corrupt politicians in his time.

So this death was perceived as a selfless sacrifice, and the man paid the ultimate price no politician would, the most horrible death of that time period. All for the good of the people.

This martyrdom was so important to early followers they built the man to be much more, because to them he was more then just a man. And his story lived on, and it grew.

It was not long and his story so powerful, it took a life of its own, and not long after his legend and growing theology was competing against the Emperor himself.

Amazing to go from a student of Johns 1 to 3 years previously, being an Aramaic Galilean peasant, then to compete against the emperors divinity. Its an amazing real true life story.
I think the Romans crucified thousands and thousands of people in their times, only the day jesus was crucified they were at least three. How many of them we remember? Jesus? Spartacus? Peter? Andrew ( because of the railroads crossing signs [emoji16] )
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I think the Romans crucified thousands and thousands of people in their times, only the day jesus was crucified they were at least three. How many of them we remember? Jesus? Spartacus? Peter? Andrew ( because of the railroads crossing signs [emoji16] )

None of the people you mentioned except jesus, died in front of half a million people trying to help the common man, fighting oppression and corrupt politicians.

In a time when Hellenist wanted to divorce Judaism anyway, but keep its one all powerful god.

Being center stage in a what amounts to a rock show, will get you famous and noticed.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
It's weird how some people make it necessary to remind them that just because they don't understand something doesn't mean it can't be understood and that others haven't already done so.
Are you saying that you actually understand it?
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed ( temporarily ) in order to follow him?
Of course we dont. We just need a just man that talks sense possibly with a bit of charisma. We follow all sort of people for all sorts of reasons all the time why would be different for him.
Hi Cambridge,

The key is the love of God. The reason of Jesus’ suffering & crucifixion is not to follow Him for man has given a free-will. By God’s love, He saved us by using the most cruel and the gravest punishment to show that His love has no equality.

John 3:16-17
16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

To free us from the slavery of sins
Rev. 1:5
5. and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Jesus is also a man of charisma, this is why people followed Him as narrated by the Bible.
Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to recognize him as the son of god?
People may say nobody would have followed him without that sacrifice, well Muhammad didn't sacrifice himself and more than one and a half billions people follow him. And apparently he worked for the same god too.
That is God’s plan, we cannot question God about His plan because He is God. He knows what He is doing. Without that sacrifice, people will not know how great is the love of God--to save us from the penalty of sin. There are a lot of people (human), a prophet, a messenger, a teacher or a spiritual leader who followed by billion of people.
Yes that’s true and it is the reality, but nobody could claim he can save our soul to eternity; nobody could claim he is the Son of God; nobody could claim he is the truth, the way to the Father God and the life.o_O

If you know somebody aside from Jesus who claimed is the truth, please inform me.
Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to see he is the son of god?
I say we dont. That guy according to the gospels already did all sort of miracles, walked on water, multiplied food, exorcised people, gave back the sight to blind people even freakin raised a dead person. What s the point of one more act of magic after all of that, especially of such gory nature?
I believed that Jesus used His miracles and supernatural to prove that He is the Son of God. All that you said are the proof that He came from God.
Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to recognize him as the son of god?
Only true reason is that it would fulfill a prophecy present in the bible and since the bible is god inspired than why put that particular prophecy there in first place than? Simply tell he would be able to fly for example and than have him fly over the temple. I guarantee it would be more than enough. No need to torture and kill him.
Again, all was plan by God. God is all-knowing for He is God. Prophecy was fulfilled for Christ’s birth and crucifixion.
Does a man really need to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to be the son of god?
I ve always heard god is so great because he incarnated in order to experience first hand our human condition but that is pointless cause god by definition already knows everything. Its like me rolling naked in the snow to experience cold. I already know cold, dont need to do that.
That is true, God knows everything for He is an omniscient God. In regard with His incarnation, God need to establish His ministry through Jesus Christ to proclaim His plan. I believe that God’s all-knowing was executed with a purpose to show the way to the Father, the good news, and let the people know what is the truth. :cool:
Does a man really need to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to be the son of god?
That would simply align with the tradition of scapegoating that god himself set up in first place, which again makes no sense.

Again however I see it the idea of Jesus suffering on the cross seems completely unnecessary and pointless and absolutely doesn't look like the best plan the most wise and just being in the universe can come up with to send us a message.
It is the wisest of God’s plan because it can save man’s soul to eternity. You may cite or share things that you think is the wisest for a God can do.

Thanks:)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Ugh. Instead of taking things so seriously, why don't you look into the symbolism of it? Mythology is best taken metaphorically and allegorically. Mainstream religion is a huge mess because it takes things more literally and dumbs things down for the masses. "New Atheist" types are just as bad because they don't bother to understand things on a deeper level, often developing the same sort of mentality that religious fundamentalists do, just the flip-side of it. Christianity is best understood as a Mystery religion of the type that were popular in the Greco-Roman world at the time, like the Orphic Mysteries, the Eleusinian Mysteries, the Mithraic Mysteries, etc. You can't really understand the meaning of the stories unless you have esoteric knowledge, which you have to be initiated into. Since the "orthodox" church went on a rampage and persecuted the Mystery schools to the brink of extinction and destroyed much of their written works, we're in a tough position since we have to piece things together. But if you study hard (or Google hard), you can come to a better understanding of things.

For example:
http://gnosticwarrior.com/christ-crucified-golgotha.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta45.htm
http://gnosticteachings.org/the-tea...ng-here-and-now/185-the-gnosis-of-easter.html

Even with Atonement theories from the mainstream churches, there's some that have deeper meanings that are more intellectually and spiritually satisfying. Usually you'll find those in the Eastern church since the West went a bit bonkers and dropped a lot of the more esoteric meanings of things and came up with sadistic crap like the Penal Substitution theory.

See my thread here for more about Atonement theories: http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/atonement-theories.165563/
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
How could it possibly be pointless, when it happened? It continues to happen. There's a necessity/compulsion for many people to oppress and exploit. Why?
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
It's really the omnipotence that makes the whole thing go clunk.

What bothers me most about the whole thing is we're supposedly being "saved" from something we didn't do. Some time ago, supposedly, someone ate the wrong piece of fruit. Fast forward a few thousand years and I'm born. I didn't do a damn thing, I'm just sitting there crapping my diapers and I'm considered guilty of a crime I didn't commit. Now I need some way out of it and, hey what do you know, I can get a get out of jail free card if I worship this dude and join his cult.

I didn't do anything that would require forgiveness! Imagine putting Steven Booth, John Wilkes Booth's great-great-great-great-grandson in jail for the murder of Abraham Lincoln? Only replace "murdering Abraham Lincoln" with "eating the incorrect apple."

What a frame job! God tags us all with the responsibility of someone else's bad actions, then concocts a melodramatic solution designed to make us feel guilty about the murder of his son? Ask yourself this question...if a guy killed someone, then put the gun in your hand and you got sent to jail for the crime, would you thank and praise that same guy when he came to bail you out? Of course not. Then why thank and praise God for "forgiving" you for a crime he saddled you with unfairly in the first place? It's like in all the evil spy movies when the bad guy injects someone with poison and then dangles the antidote in front of their face.

The OP is right, Jesus' death was completely arbitrary and unnecessary. Why not just forgive us? Why not just stop blaming us for the fruit incident and judge us on our own actions? Why not make some other requirement, like doing 5 good deeds a week, for forgiveness instead of the requirement being for us to feel guilty about, and partially responsible for, Jesus' death?

Not only was Jesus' death unnecessary, it represents a very dishonest, unfair God who set us up from the get-go.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Only true reason is that it would fulfill a prophecy present in the bible and since the bible is god inspired than why put that particular prophecy there in first place than?
This is the whole point....

The prophecies don't say God is going to sacrifice/murder him, it says we murdered him, and then make him into a sin offering, thus proving who is evil/ravenous, and needs removing on judgement day.

Christianity is anti-Christ's teachings, as they don't follow him, they follow the made up Pharisee's gospel of John, and the letters of Paul.

We're in a place closer to Hell, so to remove all the workers of iniquity, the Bible establishes a snare across time, to catch out those quick to the spoils.:innocent:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed ( temporarily ) in order to follow him?.

No....all we need are His teachings.
He saved no one by dying.
that was nothing but standing to the face of earthly authority....and getting condemned for it.

He saved by His example and His parables.
 
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