So its not an accusation for you to say christian apologists dont answer there cretics? How is it not an accusation?
I know of no apologist who has continued to answer critiques of an article, you would have to show me.
Carrier writes articles answering any criiticism a review puts to him.
The article you linked to was using Carriers older work which was still in the process of learning information.
Inanna did die and was resurrected and the article said there were no resurrected savior gods before Jesus.
At that time Carrier hadn't written about any of them except Innanna. The apologist sources were not appearing to use the clay tablets?
It appears to me you just want to argue and not debate.
That's a lie and shows poor form. I'm the one posting sources and you come back with non-sourced articles by a pastor.
The 2nd article only deals with Inanna and the nitpicking they do I've already dealt with. You just ignore vast amounts of information about cultural synchretism and how what matters is the idea of a savior god dying and rising.
I can't even tell what you're going on and on about?
The issue is resolved, there are many obvious parallels to Christianity and Pagan religions. More than enough to show where the Jesus story came from. This debate is far over.
It's been admitted by Justin Myrter and several other historians from the era and shown clearly in Carriers article.
No, the supernatural parts wer not added later and thats not what "most" scholars believe. ?
Of course, in a lecture Carrier talks about the field and explains besides a few fundamentalist scholars no one believes in the supernatural aspects of Christianity. Most believe they were added later.
Here are 4 leading scholars who are highly respected in the field, their beliefs are neatly summed up.
Losing faith: how secular scholarship affects scholars - creation.com
Just going to church and reading Christian propaganda will not teach you what's actually happening in the world. In the Ph.D community of historians the bible is not real, it's a historical book of mythology.
A few huh? Just a few? Proof?
Carrier stated in several lectures that there are a few Ph.D biblical historians who believe in some form of Christianity but in scholarship and in secular universities people simply don't believe ancient mythology is real.
Why would bart, a non christian, scholar at that, use christian apologetics? That makes zero sense. And i dont agree.
You don't agree with what? That Ehrman uses christian apologetics?
That would be weird because Carrier points out all of hhis uses in an article and explains why they are crap.
I can debate that line, but i wont because its too absurd. Its like debating whether trees grow out of the ground, its just absurd.
Carier, like everyone has biases, beliefs and defense.
He set out to prove what the field currently believes - that Jesus was just a man teaching reformed Judaism. But he realized that it's much more likely that there was no Jesus at all.
He follows evidence.
But, i took your word for it, so now your saying it wasnt true. So what was it, some kind of test to see if i would be honest or something? I certainly didnt fail thats for sure because i never claimed to be a know it all. I even said i need to deal with this in bits too.
Whats so hard debating your oponent giving them the benefit of the doubt that there honest? Is that so hard to do?
doubt, but you cant give me, nor the sources i give you the same respect.
.
I don't know what your talking about with tests and benefit of the doubt?
The article was debating a Carrier paper from 2003 and said "there are no pre-Jesus savior gods" But in 2014 Carrier presented material that showed there were 6.
Then the article nit-picked little differences like the fact that he wasn't killed on the cross but right before, as if these facts mean anything? The important facts are a virgin born demigod died and rose in 3 days for the benefit of it's followers.
this and other stories influenced the gospel writers to create a similar version for Judaism.
The apologist was all like "well Inanna died just before they hung him.."
What? Who cares? He rose again in 3 days! That is the single most important part of Christianity right there. The resurrection. Now we know it's mythology taken from Pagan sources and developed into a Jewish version.
6 dying/rising demigods before Jesus, and Carriers entire NT study was done after that article.
Oh im sure he does. But gauss what, so do christian scholars answer there cretics.
Where?
Ok, well ill take your word for it......or should i? Its not another TEST is it? Lol
what test?
You know what? This is a severe distortion of what religion is all about in this statement. Atleast MY religion anyway. True religion dont twist facts to suit itself, nor does it make up its own facts. True religion is HONEST.
And again, it appears your alluding to carier having no biases again. That he has no beliefs and no defense, its all facts for him. Oh boy......
They are all fictional stories that teach real lessons. They are not written to be taken literal.
The synoptic gospels were not honest or not-honest.
Someone took Mark and wrote Matthew, adding elements that the writer thought would make the story more interesting.
Each new gospel increased the supernatural tales. One even adding a zombie apocolypse after Jesus died/or rose. And Earthquakes and the sun went out.
The writer of the gospels of Hercules wasn't a liar, he was a writer trying to pass myth and wisdom and good stories to other generations.
Hercules and Jesus are both myths.
Got an original source for a god dying for sin?
Yes some died for salvation. But sin was a preoccupation of the Jews which they had to go to temple every day to have forgiven.
So that was a big thing in THEIR culture. Other cultures were not as uptight about "oh my god we were born into all this sin, we need forgiveness, we need a god to sacrifice himself or we are screwed!" So the Jewish version was heavily attached to sin.
I do, and since your debating someone other then yourself, you should care too.
Like i said, i never took this dying rising god, christianity stole ideas, seriously. But you do, so, therefor i am too then. I realize im not debating myself here. Im not gonna be selfish and im not gonna just agree with your view either. Your gonna have to work this. It may take a year of us debating. For real, i did that once with another guy on here pertaining to a different subject. Interestingly that debate was pleasent. Not one time did he accuse me of dishonesty, yet we disagreed. Amazing huh? It can be done![/QUOTE]
Well you were being disingenuous. You claimed to know that Carrier was bias, dishonest and whatever else. But were unfamiliar with all of the mythicist work by others he's pointed out as wrong. And the Q gospel, he believes isn't real and several other mythicist theories he calls crank. You are not listening to his talks or interviews and probably have no real idea of what his work and ethics are like.
So being quick to judge him seemed sketchy.
He clearly isn't looking to just debunk Christianity, he has been following where the facts lead him.
So, perhaps that means they did not steel anything. Or, if they did, perhaps it means theres truths in each culture.
An alternative view is that all these religions had real dying/rising messiahs, then maybe Thor and Hercules could be real too. And why not Roswell?
Personally I'm not going to believe anything supernatural until it's proven.
Like Thor shows up, flies, creates a storm, is strong like Superman and lifts a battleship. Then religious people who think he's the antichrist blow him up with C4 and he survives.
Ir, huh? I eat food, oh you do to? Oh so i got that from you too huh? Dang, is there anything of my life story that i dont get from yours? Oh, i sleep in a bed, oh crap, you do too? Oh so i stole that from you too then? So i dont sleep in a bed.
I think you get the drift.
Yes this works for US. Driving, eating, sleeping.
Not magic, super powers, being slain, dead and coming back to life, flying into space, healing sick people with magic and getting fisherman to drop their business which feeds their families and follow you around everywhere.
These things NEVER HAPPEN IN ANYONES LIFE.
But we actually know they happened in pagan MYTHOLOGY.
So when a new story comes out with all those strange things in them we can be pretty certain that it was COPIED FROM THAT MYTHOLOGY!?!
Seriously, what about this can't you get?
Thats not true, the NT gives credit to the OT. I gave you an example of that already with jonah and you ignored it. Theres lots more.
Yes the NT can source the OT at times. But the OT isn't going to say -"oh by the way this story about Moses, we ripped that off from an old Sumerian myth about a guy who taks to god.." They don't say that. If you bother to read the RC article he explains how it works.
even IF they all never gave credit, that would not prove they barrowed, it could equally prove or show a common real experience.
Then one has to find evidence for this common experience, when, which god?
Most religions only have scarce evidence left. There are 1000s of myths from early man, and no reason to believe archaic supernatural tales.
The modern tales have all turned out to be con-men and woman. Psychics and cold readers and ghost hunters and big foot people and all that stuff has turned out to be fraud.
Today millions believe Sia Babba is performing real magic in India. He is considered a god.
There is eyewitness evidence.
Yet Indian magic is known now to be trickery. Yet people still have this need to believe. There is no evidence ever for any supernatural events.
As much as I want Thor to be real he isn't. Bummer.