Jesus Prayed

[YoursTrue]

yes but it says the son can do nothing on it's own. in other words, it isn't done separately

He always had the Father's approval for several reasons. Now there was something special about Jesus, wouldn't you say?
John 3:14 - "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

 

[muhammad_isa]

And, I left out this example from my previous reply because I'm quite sure that my friend doesn't believe in the ressurection. But, now I can include it. Matthew 28:9, after the ressurection:

"And as they went, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they ran to him, grasped his feet, and worshiped ( προσεκύνησαν) him​

.

It makes no difference whether I believe in Jesus' resurrection.
If Jesus didn't actually die on the cross, then he would not need to be resurrected to appear after his ordeal.

So, no, the disciples were not the best examples of proper Jewish behavior. It is plausible that they would have worshipped Jesus like a god in spite of any Jewish prohibition to do so.

I think you missed the point.
Showing great respect for Jesus, and actually believing he is God [or the Father], are 2 different things.
I doubt whether the disciples knew about prisms.

 

[dybmh]

It appears to me that the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with God. What do you think?

Well, yes, and also no? God was, is, and always will be faithful to the covenants made with the Jewish people throughout history. If I understand the prophets, there has always been a righteous remnant who remain completely faithful to their obligations. And the rest of the nation has wavered, and broken their commitment many times.

 

[dybmh]

It makes no difference whether I believe in Jesus' resurrection.
If Jesus didn't die on the cross, then he would not need to be resurrected to appear after his ordeal.

Great! So now there's two examples.

I think you missed the point.
Showing great respect for Jesus, and actually believing he is God [or the Father], are 2 different things.
I doubt whether the disciples knew about prisms.

Hee-hee. That's cute.

The point is, there is an objection to the greek word "προσκυνέω" being translated as worship. And I brought a verse from Luke to confirm that this is precisely what it means.

What's the verse that is being cited by Jesus in Luke 4:8?

It's supposed to be Deuteronomy 6:13. That's an OK one.

I like Exodus 34:14 better. The word for worship there is technically "prostrate" or "bow down". And the prohibtion is not to prostrate before any "other divine power". That's what the words literally mean.

Anyway, this matter can be settled by answering a simple question. What does Satan want Jesus to do in Luke 4:7? What does Satan want in Christian theology? Satan wants to be worshipped like God. I think that's common knowledge. Satan tries to tempt Jesus requesting "προσκυνέω". And Jesus says "no, προσκυνέω is to be directed to the LORD only."

 

[Ancient Soul]

No, of course not .. it's absurd.
It started off as an argument over Jesus' Divinity, and once it had been 'established' that Jesus was "fully Divine", the concept of the trinity was developed further, as there was no going back.

It is a church of the Roman aristocracy .. those in purple robes .. and it was enforced on its subjects.

I agree.

That's why I keep trying to make the Christians see that.

I find it so strange that the bible tells them not to ADD or TAKE AWAY from it, but they so blindly believe whatever nonsense some religious leader tells them to believe or not believe what it actually states, doing just what they are warned NOT to do.

 

[dybmh]

I agree.

That's why I keep trying to make the Christians see that.

I find it so strange that the bible tells them not to ADD or TAKE AWAY from it, but they so blindly believe whatever nonsense some religious leader tells them to believe or not believe what it actually states, doing just what they are warned NOT to do.

"... doing just what they were warned not to do." They??? Who's they?

Who was given that commandment, not to add nor remove? On whom is it incumbant? Is it the Christians?

 

[Ancient Soul]

Not buying that.

One is either a God or he isn't. There is no filtering switch to turn off his so-called "Godness".

I have always had a problem with this claim because ever since my first spiritual experience in what some call Heaven, God has ALWAYS given me the spiritual answers that I am seeking, and I'm a nobody. So I will never believe in this Jesus myth. No "god" would have to pray or go learn about himself, "god", from the teachers of all the primitive mythologies of the time period.

It depends on one's definition of the word 'god.'

That comment has no bearing on the discussion of Jesus having to pray or read about himself to get to know himself. It doesn't matter which definition of GOD one uses, that clearly is NOT what any God would have to do.

 

[dybmh]

That comment has no bearing on the discussion of Jesus having to pray or read about himself to get to know himself. It doesn't matter which definition of GOD one uses, that clearly is NOT what any God would have to do.

What about a god in training? Isn't the Jesus story based on the myth where Enoch ascends alive to the heavens and becomes an angel? So, take that to the next level, a person ascending and becoming a god.

 

[Ancient Soul]

"... doing just what they were warned not to do." They??? Who's they?

Who was given that commandment, not to add nor remove? On whom is it incumbant? Is it the Christians?

It pertains to anyone using the bible as a guidebook. But since the bible is considered at the heart of Christianity, it's they who are the worst offenders.

 

[Ancient Soul]

What about a god in training? Isn't the Jesus story based on the myth where Enoch ascends alive to the heavens and becomes an angel? So, take that to the next level, a person ascending and becoming a god.

What???!!!

That's a new one on me. There are so many different spin-offs on this jesus myth I guess that's why there are over 30,000 different christian denominations.

But regardless, I don't speculate on mythology, only what I know from my own spiritual experiences and understandings imparted to me from God.

And that's why this Jesus is "god" myth doesn't track no matter how I look at it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The point is, there is an objection to the greek word "προσκυνέω" being translated as worship. And I brought a verse from Luke to confirm that this is precisely what it means..

OK .. but you do know that most scholars believe that the Gospels have anonymous authors, don't you?
This means that while nobody is saying that they are "false witness", they are in fact third hand accounts.

What's the verse that is being cited by Jesus in Luke 4:8?

It's supposed to be Deuteronomy 6:13. That's an OK one.

I like Exodus 34:14 better. The word for worship there is technically "prostrate" or "bow down". And the prohibtion is not to prostrate before any "other divine power". That's what the words literally mean..

Absolutely!
Jesus used to prostrate to "the Father", we know that.
..and Jesus also rebuked somebody for calling him "good", saying that only God is "good", telling him to get up.
i.e. not to worship him

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
- Mark 10 -

 

[dybmh]

It pertains to anyone using the bible as a guidebook. But since the bible is considered at the heart of Christianity, it's they who are the worst offenders.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense. Those commandments were not given to the entirety of the world. Guess what? If you make this incumbant on anyone, you have just added to the law. Kind of hypocritical, isn't it?

I'm not sure where you live, but I live in America. Here, on the highways, there's a speed limit for all vehicles, and there's a speed limit for commercial trucks. Let's say you're driving along in your car, you see the speed limit for trucks is 50 MPH. And you decide to be extra careful and drive 50 MPH. But the flow of traffic is going 60 MPH, and eventually you kind of relax a little and your speed creeps up to 60.

When you pass a police officer, are you going to get pulled over for accidentally violating a law that doesn't actually pertain to you? No.

It's like that. The laws given by Moses were from God to the Jewish people. "They" (Christians) were not warned not to change the law. The Jewish people were warned, and maybe the Christians choose to keep that law, or not. And certainly if they accidentally violate it, there's no harm in that.

 

[dybmh]

What???!!!

That's a new one on me. There are so many different spin-offs on this jesus myth I guess that's why there are over 30,000 different christian denominations.

But regardless, I don't speculate on mythology, only what I know from my own spiritual experiences and understandings imparted to me from God.

And that's why this Jesus is "god" myth doesn't track no matter how I look at it.

First of all, talking about myths, that 30,000 number is a myth. If you look at how that number is derived, it's basically intentionally inflated. It's supposed to be a form of cheerleading demonstrating Christian penetration into each and every country world-wide. I invite you to look it up yourself.

Regarding Enoch, yes, that's the closest match for the "son-of-man" narrative. Which, if I recall, is the story of Enoch, whom you may recall is a man in the bible who didn't die and ascended to heaven alive.

Regarding a god in training, that's just me being creative. You seem to be asking a question, how could jesus be a god, but still need advice and still worship? answer, he could have become a god later in the story. And it kind of fits the gospel story, as the story goes on, it seems like jesus becomes more and more god like until he dies and is ressurected becoming fully god.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Sorry, that doesn't make sense. Those commandments were not given to the entirety of the world. Guess what? If you make this incumbant on anyone, you have just added to the law. Kind of hypocritical, isn't it?

I'm not sure where you live, but I live in America. Here, on the highways, there's a speed limit for all vehicles, and there's a speed limit for commercial trucks. Let's say you're driving along in your car, you see the speed limit for trucks is 50 MPH. And you decide to be extra careful and drive 50 MPH. But the flow of traffic is going 60 MPH, and eventually you kind of relax a little and your speed creeps up to 60.

When you pass a police officer, are you going to get pulled over for accidentally violating a law that doesn't actually pertain to you? No.

It's like that. The laws given by Moses were from God to the Jewish people. "They" (Christians) were not warned not to change the law. The Jewish people were warned, and maybe the Christians choose to keep that law, or not. And certainly if they accidentally violate it, there's no harm in that.

You sure believe in killing the messenger I see!

Go take this up with the Christian "god", it's supposed to be his "word", it has NOTHING to do with me.

 

[YoursTrue]

That comment has no bearing on the discussion of Jesus having to pray or read about himself to get to know himself. It doesn't matter which definition of GOD one uses, that clearly is NOT what any God would have to do.

Sorry, somebody here I believe brought out about God and Jesus. Jesus in fact cited to the Jews that they too were considered gods. Did you know that? Psalm 82 has a recount of this, and Jesus quoted from it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, yes, and also no? God was, is, and always will be faithful to the covenants made with the Jewish people throughout history. If I understand the prophets, there has always been a righteous remnant who remain completely faithful to their obligations. And the rest of the nation has wavered, and broken their commitment many times.

As I keep reading the Bible (the tanach) I see many times the God of Israel was not pleased with the way Israel was going. I don't think it means He was not pleased with everybody within the nation, because there were people like Daniel, Meschach and Abednego, but He was aware of what was going on (such as with Manassah and other situations) and let Himself be known by actions.

 

[InChrist]

if jesus were god and jesus prayed, isn't that bizarre that jesus prayed to himself, asked himself for something he could give himself as god?

Not bizarre at all. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have communicated with one another eternally.

 

[Ancient Soul]

First of all, talking about myths, that 30,000 number is a myth. If you look at how that number is derived, it's basically intentionally inflated. It's supposed to be a form of cheerleading demonstrating Christian penetration into each and every country world-wide. I invite you to look it up yourself.

Regarding Enoch, yes, that's the closest match for the "son-of-man" narrative. Which, if I recall, is the story of Enoch, whom you may recall is a man in the bible who didn't die and ascended to heaven alive.

Regarding a god in training, that's just me being creative. You seem to be asking a question, how could jesus be a god, but still need advice and still worship? answer, he could have become a god later in the story. And it kind of fits the gospel story, as the story goes on, it seems like jesus becomes more and more god like until he dies and is ressurected becoming fully god.

I've been on Internet forums for about 20 years, and I think the 30,000 Christian denomination number is low. Given since NONE of them can agree on much of anything about their mythology.

And your interpretation of the jesus myth is a new one to me.

But regardless, you missed the most important part of my statement on WHY i have such a problem with jesus having to pray or read from the silly primitive pagan texts of that time period to learn about himself/"god. So here is my statement again, I will >>>>> <<<<< the part you failed to read:

>>>>>"I have always had a problem with this claim because ever since my first spiritual experience in what some call Heaven, God has ALWAYS given me the spiritual answers that I am seeking, and I'm a nobody. <<<<<So I will never believe in this Jesus myth. No "god" would have to pray or go learn about himself, "god", from the teachers of all the primitive mythologies of the time period."

 

[Ancient Soul]

Sorry, somebody here I believe brought out about God and Jesus. Jesus in fact cited to the Jews that they too were considered gods. Did you know that? Psalm 82 has a recount of this, and Jesus quoted from it.

And which flavor of the jesus myth do you believe in, that he is "god", the son of "god", or part of a "god" "trinity"?

 

[loverofhumanity]

he is but he's only a fractal of that being.


like saying i am in the universe and the universe is in me.


when one looks at something as separate/divided from itself, then the self will treat it as such to the point it might be seen as an object and not possibly deserving respect or consideration.

Like the sun reflected in a perfectly polished mirror. We can say we see the sun in the mirror but the mirror is not the actual sun but a reflection of it. That’s how we understand Christ. That He was a reflection of God, of perfection, but not the essence of God. That’s why He commented ‘My Father is greater than I’