101G
Well-Known Member
LOL, LOL, LOL, not in flesh and blood in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') STATE..... Oh dear how deceived so many are. Oh well.....
101G.
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Jesus Prayed
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101G.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
that verse says, the father taught him, or more accurately, jesus assimilated what the father did
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
yes.... assimilation.
that isn't unique to a person.
yes but it says the son can do nothing on it's own. in other words, it isn't done separately
not really an assimilation but an acceptance of what already exists but was not initially apparent. it was already/always there but simply the unconscious becoming conscious
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Sure, you know it. What I'm asking is to imagine it.Yes, I know what a prism is.
Sure, on a superficial level. 2, 5, 10, 100. But, that doesn't fit the analogy. Imagine a 4 sided prisim. Can you look at one side and see the other 3 sides? How about a 5 sided prisim, or 10, or 100. See what I mean? It has to be a 3 sided prisim. It's a unique formation.
But more than that 3s are amazing! Have you ever thought about it? They're everywhere.
3s in music: 2 notes in harmony, sure, that's nice. Put 3 notes together with identical intervals? Oh, it's amazing. Switch the interval a bit, major to minor to diminished to augmented... It's glorious. What about the triplet? Take those three notes and play them repeatedly super fast on an electric guitar? We be jammin! if you want to get started as a rock musician, what do you need? 3 chords, that's it.
What about aestheics, are you into photgraphy, gardening? Rule of thirds - Wikipedia
How many colors on a color wheel? Infinite, They are all constructed from 3 primary colors.
The triangle is arguably the most important shape in the natural world! The only shape that comes close is the circle. But, compared to the triangle, the circle is boring.
Land navigation and orienteering, exploring the open seas, GPS, that's all based on triangles.
What are the simplest tools? Levers. Hammer, wrench, axe, pry-bar... All based on the triangle.
Trianges are the basis of trigonometry. That leads to waves, not just any wave, but infinite waves. What is AC power? It's a wave, troubleshooting an electoric circuit takes a wave generator. Infinite waves... That leads to harmonics, or it leads to light, or it leads to quanum mechanics. All because of the triangle. Do any other shapes come close to its importance.
In engineering, how important is a triangle? It's everywhere. Why? because it's extremely stable and strong. Power transmission towers? Built out of triangles. The trusses on the house that keep the roof in place? Triangles. Bicycle frames? Triangles. What's the first chair? Do you know this? The first primitve chair was a... 3 legged stool. Why? Because it's sturdy and stable. The legs don't need to be perfectly the same length, the ground doesn't have to be perfectly flat, but the stool with 3 legs is still solid and secure. It doesn't work with 2 legs, 4 legs, 5 legs, 100 legs. 3 legs is forever stable. You can see this concept in modern times as well. Have you ever looked at the ladders used by fruit pickers? The tallest ladders for use in the field, guess what? Only 3 legs. Two legs in the front where the steps are, and then 1 pole in the back, making a three legged ladder. It's counter intuitive but, it works. Why? It's the same principle. The field is uneven terrain, the 3 points of contact is stable regardless. The fruit picker can go way up in the trees safely, all because of the glorious triangle.
That reminds me. Ever been rock climbing? What do they tell you? 3 points of contact keeps you secure on the wall.
3s, forgive me, are magical! Other numbers are amazing too. But the 3, the triad, the triangle, is the monarch over all of them.
There's probably an argument to be made about infinity being superior to 3s. But I would argue that 3s are simple. Infinity is so complicated. It's this simplicity that yet renders something so versatile, that gives 3s the edge here in the material world. We are simple beings are we not. So, using the triangle in so many ways, practical, beautiful, 3s are simply the best.
Why? If a person believes that Jesus is the:
- most merciful
- King
- creator
- Judge
- absolutley pure
- the gaurdian
- the supreme
- the all mighty
- the provider
- the originator
- the opener
- the all seeing
- the gentle one
- etc...
What's really important? It's what's happening in a person's heart and mind. A muslim might take these 99 names, and when comtemplating them, it arouses a feeling, a sense for something that is so so so much greater than they are, so so so much greater than anything they can imagine. And in this way, their mind their heart is approaching God.
For a Christian, they might contemplate, mediate, study scripture, pray, about the story of Jesus, what he did, what he represents, what all of it means, glory, love, grace, justice, power, mercy, truth. But not normal love, truth, and justice. It's love, truth, justice, grace, power more than anything, so so much more than anything anyone can imagine, and then... POOF, their heart and mind are approaching God, the same God as a muslim contemplating the 99 names of Allah. And it's all Jesus.
Oh. Well. Let me inform you.
After Jesus walks on water. Matthew 14:32-33
The Jews at that time were simple folk, if this is true then they were beguiled by the miracles inspite of what it says in scripture. Besides, if you get to doubt the ressurection, I get to doubt this whole "King of the Jews" comment.
Did he add to the law, yes or no? Did he subvert his mother's position and encourage others to do so? yes or no? Did he claim to be the lord of the sabbath? yes or no? Did he allow people to worship him? yes or no? Regardless of what people called him, he departed from Judaism. But guess what? If he's believed to be God, none of that matters.
I haven't read the gospels in a while, but, if I recall, Jesus traveled to preach his gospel. It's not like they had telephones and could call the surrounding shuls after he preached warning the Rabbis "watch out for that Jesus, he's starting to lose touch." And wasn't his most innovative preaching happening outside of the synagogues?
No, I don't think that's true to the story. John 8:32-58. Common people, reject his authority based on what he's saying and how he's saying it. They certainly do not accept his authority. That's the story.
Sure, that means we chuck the gospels out the window, right? Paul's writing goes out the window, too? And for a Jewish person we just keep on keeping on, Torah, prayer, and acts of loving kindness. There is no temple, no gathering, no peace, whoever he was, he wasn't the one. Maybe had potential, but, who really knows what happened.Christianity evolved over centuries, from a Jewish Messianic movement to a gentile church. It is what it is.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
OK, I agree.
yes, "acceptance of what already exists" that's precisely what I meant by assimilation.
the unconcious becoming conscious, I'm not too sure about that. Perhaps it's a little too lofty for me. But, I'll think about it. Thank you,
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is to do with geometry.
I am aware of "the list" .. but I'm not so sure that Christians are.Why? If a person believes that Jesus is the:
You know this list... 99 names of Allah
- most merciful
- King
- creator
- Judge
- absolutley pure
- the gaurdian
- the supreme
- the all mighty
- the provider
- the originator
- the opener
- the all seeing
- the gentle one
- etc...
I know that..
62. Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in God and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
- Qur'an The Cow -
You are entitled to your opinion.
..but if you are correct, it makes it very surprising that Jesus made such an impact on society, and civilisation.
No ! Jesus had many , many followers. That is how Christianity spread to the gentiles.
It is merely an illusion, that one man, Paul, was responsible for the spread of Christianity.
The Bible is only a canon chosen by men .. there were many texts in circulation.
..and they weren't all written by Paul.
Wrong. They are well worth studying, imo.
..but then, so is the Qur'an.
Nobody knows for certain, but it is not hard to have an informed opinion .. that actually confirms a lot of the NT, in a context of the Torah and Qur'an, naturally.
Jesus didn't just pray to his Father for being human; he prayed to him because he knew his salvation depended on Him:
Heb. 5:7 During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him ...
Jesus asked Jehovah to protect his disciples when he was no longer with them:
John 17:11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.
Jesus told his disciples that he was going to ask his Father to send his holy spirit to support them:
John 14:15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; 16 and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU. 18 I shall not leave YOU bereaved. I am coming to YOU.
When he spoke to them about leaving to be by the Father's side, he clarified that this was a reason for them to be happy, not to be sad, because that way he would get more support from the Father to send them:
John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.
All of Jesus' teachings to his disciples revolve around worshiping his Father, whom he also calls his God even after his resurrection (John 20:17; Rev. 3:12).
Be real. The written word of God DOES NOT support human nonsenses like human-gods or three gods in one.
Heb. 5:7 During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him ...
Jesus asked Jehovah to protect his disciples when he was no longer with them:
John 17:11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.
Jesus told his disciples that he was going to ask his Father to send his holy spirit to support them:
John 14:15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; 16 and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU. 18 I shall not leave YOU bereaved. I am coming to YOU.
When he spoke to them about leaving to be by the Father's side, he clarified that this was a reason for them to be happy, not to be sad, because that way he would get more support from the Father to send them:
John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.
All of Jesus' teachings to his disciples revolve around worshiping his Father, whom he also calls his God even after his resurrection (John 20:17; Rev. 3:12).
Be real. The written word of God DOES NOT support human nonsenses like human-gods or three gods in one.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Of course you're aware, that's what made it such a great point. *pats myself on the back*I am aware of "the list" .. but I'm not so sure that Christians are.
When I read that list, I only see maybe two things that a beleiver wouldn't attribute to Jesus. And they wouldn't need the Qur'an to get there.
Great! So it's not absurd for a Christian to believe Jesus is God. It's all about what's happening internally. And this whole time I've ignored the indwelling spirit which takes this idea to much higher/deeper level.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
I know why Christians believe that Jesus is God.
It is historical.
In the same way, a Sikh believes what they believe.
However, what we believe affects our lives .. in this life, and consequently the next.
An extreme example would be believing that you will go to heaven because you believe that Jesus died for your sins, and you think that your deeds don't matter.
..and this is all because a person attributes authority to other than G-d.
People are so used to hearing that when Jesus walked the earth other people "worshipped" him that they never realize what the stories that talk about it really mean; The truth behind these accounts is not what the Christolaters have led them to believe.. To understand it, we have to visualize the real event, as if we were there.
First of all, the accounts use a word (προσκυνέω) that does not mean WORSHIP as we would adore God, but PAY TRIBUTE OR HONOR, HOMAGE, as we would pay to an authority to whom we have to show great respect. In ancient times in many countries it was customary to treat kings and other members of the nobility or secular authorities (even parents, spouse, oldest brother, etc) with that kind of honor and respect; you had to bow before them and sometimes even kneel on the floor or kiss their hand. However, that was not the same as what those same people would do in the sense of WORSHIPING God.
Now keep in mind that Jesus stood before them as a human; one that at first glance looked exactly the same as any other man that was in front of us. How could anyone consider that another human being like us should receive something that we know perfectly well that we should only give to the highest authority in the Universe? That is not logical, we would not think so... and there is no reason in the Scriptures why the disciples of Jesus, who were Jews, would have dedicated to the Messiah what they knew perfectly well that they should not do to someone else ... diferent than what they actually gave him, as their Lord, King, Savior ... but not GOD.
I am a Jehovah's Witness. Would I have bowed down to Jesus, kissed his hand, grabbed his feet, or any of the other things that Scripture says his disciples did before him? OF COURSE YES, exactly as they did. My conscience before God would be very calm, because I would have given his Son the honor that a King deserves... and that honor and homage, of course, would not be the one that I would give exclusively to the God that I adore and of whom Jesus himself spoke so much.
Don't confuse things. Be realistic.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It depends on one's definition of the word 'god.'
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, he was so closely bonded with the Father. And the Father with him. At his baptism a voice was heard from heaven saying, “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It appears to me that the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with God. What do you think?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Hello Eli. Thank you for the thoughful reply. It appears that Luke disagrees with the analysis your brought.
Luke 4:8
"Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship (προσκυνήσεις) the Lord your God and serve him only.’”
That's virtually the same word ( present tense vs past tense ) used in Matthew 14:33.
"Then the disciples worshiped ( προσεκύνησαν ) him. “You really are the Son of God!” they exclaimed.
And, I left out this example from my previous reply because I'm quite sure that my friend doesn't believe in the ressurection. But, now I can include it. Matthew 28:9, after the ressurection:
"And as they went, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they ran to him, grasped his feet, and worshiped ( προσεκύνησαν) him.
So, here we have the disciples directing something to Jesus which according to Jesus' own words is only supposed to be directed to Jehovah and Jehovah ONLY, and Jesus had the opportunity to correct them, but didn't.
Now, the logical argument. Does it make sense for the Jews who were Jesus' disciples to worship him like a god? Yes. That's the story of the common Jewish people throughout the prophets. They were inclined to idol worship and doing things they aren't supposed to do. And Jesus confirmed that his mission was directed at sinners ( the story of the tax collector Luke 5 ) ( Jesus is accused of eating with sinners Matthew 18 ). And finally Jesus himself didn't seem to have a favorable opinion of the generation in which he lived ( Luke 9:41 ). So most likely, the disciples themselves were sinners or inclined towards sinful behavior.
So, no, the disciples were not the best examples of proper Jewish behavior. It is plausible that they would have worshipped Jesus like a god in spite of any Jewish prohibition to do so.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
With one big difference, and what you say is true about no one equal to God. And Jesus yes, was God's humble servant. Humble, unto death.
John 1:14 says, And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.