Jesus/Paul Questions

[AmbiguousGuy]

I'm not a biblical scholar and am trying to put together a dateline of first-century events. So I'm asking if any experts or non-experts could give their best guesses about these questions:

1) In what (approximate) year was Jesus crucified?

2) In what years was Saul persecuting Christians?

3) In what year was Saul/Paul's conversion experience?

4) In what year did Paul first go to Jerusalem and meet with (any of) Jesus' disciples?

5) In what years were Paul's letters written?

6) In what year was gMark written?

7) In what years were the Asia Minor churches (Corinth, etc.) established?

8) In what year was Stephen stoned to death? Was Saul in Jerusalem to witness that?

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to offer their opinions on these dates.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

1. I believe the date of Jesus's death is around 33 C.E.
2. No Idea it would have occurred several years after Jesus's death. By whom did he have the authority to do so? No idea, it's assumed the Pharisees? When Stephen was stoned the Bible introduces Paul as a young man. Does Paul ever mention being around the stoning of Stephen?
3. No idea, it may have been several years after the stoning of stephen to which he was the witness who held their coats.
4. No Idea, though it would appear that he had been actively converting people before the meeting.
5. The estimated dates around around 40-50 C.E.
6. G.M is estimated to be around 55 to 60 C.E, to as late as 70 C.E The oldest fragments though are from around 150 C.E. I believe.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

1. I believe the date of Jesus's death is around 33 C.E.
2. No Idea it would have occurred several years after Jesus's death. By whom did he have the authority to do so? No idea, it's assumed the Pharisees? When Stephen was stoned the Bible introduces Paul as a young man. Does Paul ever mention being around the stoning of Stephen?
3. No idea, it may have been several years after the stoning of stephen to which he was the witness who held their coats.
4. No Idea, though it would appear that he had been actively converting people before the meeting.
5. The estimated dates around around 40-50 C.E.
6. G.M is estimated to be around 55 to 60 C.E, to as late as 70 C.E The oldest fragments though are from around 150 C.E. I believe.

Thanks. It is Questions #2,3,4 which most interest me because, like you, I have no good idea of the answers. I've just recently considered them, and I can't figure how they fit into the timeline.

33CE... Jesus dies.
35CE... Paul meets with Jesus' disciples.
40CE... Paul writes letters.

So when was Paul persecuting Christians and having his conversion experience?

But I appreciate you answering the other questions.They do seem like the standard opinions.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Thanks. It is Questions #2,3,4 which most interest me because, like you, I have no good idea of the answers. I've just recently considered them, and I can't figure how they fit into the timeline.

33CE... Jesus dies.
35CE... Paul meets with Jesus' disciples.
40CE... Paul writes letters.

So when was Paul persecuting Christians and having his conversion experience?

But I appreciate you answering the other questions.They do seem like the standard opinions.

Well it's generally accepted that Jesus's ministry happened between 27-29 C.E. lasting about a year to three years depending on the synoptic Gospels or John (synoptic Gospels only mention 1 Passover if I remember correctly).

So estimated that Jesus was executed around either 28 C.E to as late as 34 C.E.

Paul's Conversion falls within a year or so after that.

This gets into conflict though with the description of Paul as Saul as a young man during the stoning of Stephen.

The best way i can see it is that, Jesus Died around 30 A.D., the Disciples worked for converting people for two years, during that time facing persecution from those like Paul. So Paul persecuted (or was involved in persecutions) for two years. So Paul by the time he was writing his letters had spent his time traveling to other countries gathering converts. So from 33 A.D. to 50 A.D. Paul traveled around the world. It would be during those years 33-50 A.D. that he would have had those debates with the other Disciples. Though Acts doesn't mention all of the 12.

If you are wondering about how the 12 would have been able to convert so many, you also have to take into consideration that The Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles are considered two parts of a whole by scholars. Luke mentions that Jesus sent out 70 apostles to minister his word in pairs of twos. So the conversion would have started occurring well before Jesus's death.

It would also make Jesus a threat to Roman power if he had a following of over 70 people.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well it's generally accepted that....

Thanks for the followup. Let me process it and get back to you.

Meanwhile, I've added a 7th question... asking when the Asia Minor churches were established. Do you have an opinion about that?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well it's generally accepted that Jesus's ministry happened between 27-29 C.E. lasting about a year to three years depending on the synoptic Gospels or John (synoptic Gospels only mention 1 Passover if I remember correctly).

Personally, I don't consider gJohn any more historical than the Book of Mormon regarding the life of Jesus. Nor gMatthew and gLuke, which seem like revisions of gMark to me. I can only accept gMark as possibly being historical.

So estimated that Jesus was executed around either 28 C.E to as late as 34 C.E.
Paul's Conversion falls within a year or so after that.

Why do you think that? I mean, is there any record or are you just trying to fit the pieces into a timeline?

If you are right, it means that the church cranked up immediately after Jesus' death, so that Saul had time to hear about it and become its persecuter, all within one year? To me, that seems awfully fast for a religion to get started.

This gets into conflict though with the description of Paul as Saul as a young man during the stoning of Stephen.

Yes, it does. A young Saul witnessing Stephen's stoning just doesn't work, does it. I wonder if this is one reason why some scholars consider Acts to be illegitimate?

If you are wondering about how the 12 would have been able to convert so many, you also have to take into consideration that The Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles are considered two parts of a whole by scholars. Luke mentions that Jesus sent out 70 apostles to minister his word in pairs of twos. So the conversion would have started occurring well before Jesus's death.

As I say, I personally can't accept gLuke as historical. I see it as a theological revision of gMark's text and not an independent accounting of events.

So you think the timeline below is about right? If not, would you adjust it as best suits your view?

(All readers are welcome and encouraged to offer their own timelines. I would like to work out what seems most reasonable to me.)

27-29... Jesus ministry.
27........ Young Saul witnesses Stephen's stoning.
30........ Asia Minor churches being established.
30........ Jesus dies
31........ Disciples preaching. Saul persecuting.
32........ Paul's conversion.
35........ Paul visits Peter/Jerusalem disciples.
40........ Paul starts letter-writing.

 

[sojourner]

I'm not a biblical scholar and am trying to put together a dateline of first-century events. So I'm asking if any experts or non-experts could give their best guesses about these questions:

1) In what (approximate) year was Jesus crucified?

2) In what years was Saul persecuting Christians?

3) In what year was Saul/Paul's conversion experience?

4) In what year did Paul first go to Jerusalem and meet with (any of) Jesus' disciples?

5) In what years were Paul's letters written?

6) In what year was gMark written?

7) In what years were the Asia Minor churches (Corinth, etc.) established?

8) In what year was Stephen stoned to death? Was Saul in Jerusalem to witness that?

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to offer their opinions on these dates.

It's believed Jesus was crucified circa 33 c.e.

Saul began preaching less than 18 months following the crucifixion, so he would have been persecuting Xtians earlier than that.

Acts hints that Paul visited Jerusalem 3 years after his conversion. Historians believe that the Jerusalem conference took place about 49 c.e.

1 Thessalonians was written about 50 c.e. (the first NT book to be written)
the rest (1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Romans, Philemon, Philippians) were written within a 10-year period, until about the year 60 c.e.

Mark was written just post-70 c.e.

The seven churches of Asia are referred to in Revelation, and may not be actual churches at all, but represent spiritual aspects of the church, as a whole.

Stephen was purportedly stoned about two years following the crucifixion. If that's the case, Paul would not have been present at that event, if the placing of his first visit to Jerusalem 3 years following his conversion, is correct.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Personally, I don't consider gJohn any more historical than the Book of Mormon regarding the life of Jesus. Nor gMatthew and gLuke, which seem like revisions of gMark to me. I can only accept gMark as possibly being historical.

Why do you think that? I mean, is there any record or are you just trying to fit the pieces into a timeline?

If you are right, it means that the church cranked up immediately after Jesus' death, so that Saul had time to hear about it and become its persecuter, all within one year? To me, that seems awfully fast for a religion to get started.

Yes, it does. A young Saul witnessing Stephen's stoning just doesn't work, does it. I wonder if this is one reason why some scholars consider Acts to be illegitimate?

As I say, I personally can't accept gLuke as historical. I see it as a theological revision of gMark's text and not an independent accounting of events.

So you think the timeline below is about right? If not, would you adjust it as best suits your view?

(All readers are welcome and encouraged to offer their own timelines. I would like to work out what seems most reasonable to me.)

27-29... Jesus ministry.
27........ Young Saul witnesses Stephen's stoning.
30........ Asia Minor churches being established.
30........ Jesus dies
31........ Disciples preaching. Saul persecuting.
32........ Paul's conversion.
35........ Paul visits Peter/Jerusalem disciples.
40........ Paul starts letter-writing.

I am making the assumption that they are accurate historically. If you go by just Mark then it mentions only 1 passover, though it doesn't mean there wasn't.

But let's assume that the ministry was 1 year in length.

So Paul would have converted 1 year or so after Jesus. Jesus's gathering would have had to been very large to have persecution that was so large. It would also explain the Roman execution as well, as at that point it starts to look like a rebellion if in one year Jesus's name would carry such infamy.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Saul began preaching less than 18 months following the crucifixion, so he would have been persecuting Xtians earlier than that.

Thanks for answering, soujourner. Can you give me your evidence or reasoning for that 18-month figure?

So you think that Saul was probably persecuting Xtians even before Jesus died?

The seven churches of Asia are referred to in Revelation, and may not be actual churches at all, but represent spiritual aspects of the church, as a whole.

Ah, I've never heard that idea. So Paul may not have been writing letters to actual churches but rather writing to Christianity at large?

Stephen was purportedly stoned about two years following the crucifixion. If that's the case, Paul would not have been present at that event, if the placing of his first visit to Jerusalem 3 years following his conversion, is correct.

It's so hard to stitch together a timeline without knowing whom to believe or disbelieve. Would you mind giving your best guess at it by organizing the eight items in chronological order and guessing at their rough dates? (If you don't believe some of them actually happened, you could note that.)

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

But let's assume that the ministry was 1 year in length.

So Paul would have converted 1 year or so after Jesus. Jesus's gathering would have had to been very large to have persecution that was so large. It would also explain the Roman execution as well, as at that point it starts to look like a rebellion if in one year Jesus's name would carry such infamy.

For me, the better explanation so far is that some kind of Christian church was in existence long before 30 CE, possibly as early as 10 CE or even earlier.

So Saul could've witnessed Stephen's stoning in 20-25 CE.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

For me, the better explanation so far is that some kind of Christian church was in existence long before 30 CE, possibly as early as 10 CE or even earlier.

So Saul could've witnessed Stephen's stoning in 20-25 CE.

Well there are the missing years of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

Thanks for answering, soujourner. Can you give me your evidence or reasoning for that 18-month figure?

15 years elapsed until his visit in about 49 c.e., for the conference surrounding the issue of circumcision of Gentiles. Doing the math, we find that Paul's conversion came very close on the heels of the crucifixion. About 18 months.

So you think that Saul was probably persecuting Xtians even before Jesus died?

No.

Ah, I've never heard that idea. So Paul may not have been writing letters to actual churches but rather writing to Christianity at large?

Well, we don't have copies of letters to seven churches. He wrote to the church at Thessalonica, Rome, Corinth, Galatia, and Philippi.

It's so hard to stitch together a timeline without knowing whom to believe or disbelieve. Would you mind giving your best guess at it by organizing the eight items in chronological order and guessing at their rough dates?

No one knows for sure. Best guesses would be approximately:
1) Jesus' ministry 30-33 c.e.
2) Jesus crucified 33 c.e.
3) Disciples preaching/Paul persecuting beginning 33 c.e.
4) Stephen stoned 37 c.e.
5) Paul converted 35 c.e.
6) Asia Minor churches being established around 35 c.e.
7) Paul visits Peter 37 c.e.
8) Paul begins writing 50 c.e.

 

[rusra02]

I'm not a biblical scholar and am trying to put together a dateline of first-century events. So I'm asking if any experts or non-experts could give their best guesses about these questions:

1) In what (approximate) year was Jesus crucified?

2) In what years was Saul persecuting Christians?

3) In what year was Saul/Paul's conversion experience?

4) In what year did Paul first go to Jerusalem and meet with (any of) Jesus' disciples?

5) In what years were Paul's letters written?

6) In what year was gMark written?

7) In what years were the Asia Minor churches (Corinth, etc.) established?

8) In what year was Stephen stoned to death? Was Saul in Jerusalem to witness that?

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to offer their opinions on these dates.

1. 33 C.E.
2. Possibly 33-35
3. possibly 33-35
4.possibly 36 C.E.
5. From 50 C.E. to 61 CE
6. 60-65
7. 50-51
8. 33-35, yes

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

No one knows for sure. Best guesses would be approximately:

1) Jesus' ministry 30-33 c.e.
2) Jesus crucified 33 c.e.
3) Disciples preaching/Paul persecuting beginning 33 c.e.
5) Paul converted 35 c.e.
6) Asia Minor churches being established around 35 c.e.
4) Stephen stoned 37 c.e.
7) Paul visits Peter 37 c.e.
8) Paul begins writing 50 c.e.

Thanks. That helps. I've shuffled a couple of your items around to make your list chronological rather than numerical.

A couple of questions:

Are you one who thinks that Jesus made a big splash or a little splash in the local area? I ask because it's hard for me to think that a religion would start so quickly around a barely-noticed preacher. Your list has Saul persecuting Christians for a maximum of two years, starting in the year that Jesus died. Can you say a few words about why you think Christianity would spread so quickly -- enough so that Saul would have time to notice Christians and begin to persecute them, even before satelitte churches were being formed?

Where was Saul persecuting Christians?

When do you think he was first in Jerusalem?

My impression has always been that (a young) Saul witnessed Stephen's stoning... not a converted Paul. Am I wrong about that? You have Paul witnessing that a couple of years after his conversion.

Thanks again.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

1. 33 C.E.
2. Possibly 33-35
3. possibly 33-35
4.possibly 36 C.E.
5. From 50 C.E. to 61 CE
6. 60-65
7. 50-51
8. 33-35, yes

Thanks for having a go at it, rusra. I am reposting your answers below -- in a format which anyone can use to make their own guesses. Note that I've added a question about Paul's first visit to Jerusalem. I'm pretty ignorant about most of this stuff, so I don't know if there is other mention of Saul/Paul in Jerusalem.

1. Jesus crucified...33
2. Saul persecuting... 33-35
3. Saul/Paul conversion.. 33-35
4. Stephen stoned... 33-35
5. Paul first meets disciples... 36
6. Asia Minor churches established... 50-51
7. Paul's letters written... 50 - 61
8. gMark written... 60-65
9. Paul's first visit to Jerusalem...

So according to your view/theory of the timeline, Saul began persecuting immediately at Jesus' death and maybe only did so for a few months before converting. Can you say a few words about why Christianity took off so quickly, especially in light of previous messiahs failing? Do you think Jesus made a big splash or only a little one in his own time? Why were there enough Christians so soon after Jesus' death that their theology or politics seemed threatening to Saul?

Was it Saul or Paul who witnessed Stephen's stoning, in your opinion?

 

[sojourner]

Thanks. That helps. I've shuffled a couple of your items around to make your list chronological rather than numerical.

A couple of questions:

Are you one who thinks that Jesus made a big splash or a little splash in the local area? I ask because it's hard for me to think that a religion would start so quickly around a barely-noticed preacher. Your list has Saul persecuting Christians for a maximum of two years, starting in the year that Jesus died. Can you say a few words about why you think Christianity would spread so quickly -- enough so that Saul would have time to notice Christians and begin to persecute them, even before satelitte churches were being formed?

Where was Saul persecuting Christians?

When do you think he was first in Jerusalem?

My impression has always been that (a young) Saul witnessed Stephen's stoning... not a converted Paul. Am I wrong about that? You have Paul witnessing that a couple of years after his conversion.

Thanks again.

I think Jesus made enough of a splash to get noticed by the Sanhedrin and the local Roman authorities. I think Xy spread quickly in the Roman empire, because Rome was given to adopting new religions. Xy was likely modeled on the Roman Symposium or dinner party. As such, it would have attracted the attention of the social climbers and power brokers.

Paul was persecuting Xtians in Judea.

Paul was probably first in Jerusalem when he was persecuting Xtians.

We really don't know about the whole stoning incident. Nor are we sure when he visited Jerusalem to see Peter. We aren't even exactly sure of the date of the council -- around 49 c.e.

 

[rusra02]

Thanks for having a go at it, rusra. I am reposting your answers below -- in a format which anyone can use to make their own guesses. Note that I've added a question about Paul's first visit to Jerusalem. I'm pretty ignorant about most of this stuff, so I don't know if there is other mention of Saul/Paul in Jerusalem.

1. Jesus crucified...33
2. Saul persecuting... 33-35
3. Saul/Paul conversion.. 33-35
4. Stephen stoned... 33-35
5. Paul first meets disciples... 36
6. Asia Minor churches established... 50-51
7. Paul's letters written... 50 - 61
8. gMark written... 60-65
9. Paul's first visit to Jerusalem...

So according to your view/theory of the timeline, Saul began persecuting immediately at Jesus' death and maybe only did so for a few months before converting. Can you say a few words about why Christianity took off so quickly, especially in light of previous messiahs failing? Do you think Jesus made a big splash or only a little one in his own time? Why were there enough Christians so soon after Jesus' death that their theology or politics seemed threatening to Saul?

Was it Saul or Paul who witnessed Stephen's stoning, in your opinion?

The Bible says at Stephen's execution, "And after throwing him outside the city, they began casting stones at him. And the witnesses laid down their outer garments at the feet of a young man called Saul." (Acts 7:58) as to the rapid spread of Christianity, the Bible reveals the disclples numbered into the thousands soon after Jesus resurrection. (Acts 2:41) I believe God's holy spirit empowered his disciples to boldly witness to Jesus resurrection. And almost immediately, this raised the ire of the same men responsible for Jesus death, resulting in persecution of the Christians, in which Saul took an eager hand. (Acts 4 and 5) Paul later explained;"I, for one, really thought within myself I ought to commit many acts of opposition against the name of Jesus the Naz·a·rene′; which, in fact, I did in Jerusalem, and many of the holy ones I locked up in prisons, as I had received authority from the chief priests; and when they were to be executed, I cast my vote against them. And by punishing them many times in all the synagogues I tried to force them to make a recantation; and since I was extremely mad against them, I went so far as to persecuting them even in outside cities." (Acts 26:9-11)

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

...as to the rapid spread of Christianity, the Bible reveals the disclples numbered into the thousands soon after Jesus resurrection. (Acts 2:41) I believe God's holy spirit empowered his disciples to boldly witness to Jesus resurrection. And almost immediately, this raised the ire of the same men responsible for Jesus death, resulting in persecution of the Christians, in which Saul took an eager hand. (Acts 4 and 5)

Thanks again for the expansion. A lot of the Biblical-scholar types who engage the Historical vs. Mythical Jesus debates seem to downplay the attention that Jesus got during his lifetime. I think they do that to explain why there are no contemporary references to Jesus outside of the gospels.

So that's why I was asking that question -- about why such a large, organized body of Christians within a year of Jesus' death. Your answer reflects the belief that Jesus was actually risen from the grave or that his disciples believed so. I'm not sure how the scholars tend to think about that event.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Paul was probably first in Jerusalem when he was persecuting Xtians.

You guessed earlier that Saul began persecuting Christians in the same year as Jesus died. Are you of the opinion the Paul knew of Jesus while he was alive?

If not, do you think he knew lots of details about Jesus' earthly life -- from the people of Jerusalem?

 

[nash8]

I'm not a biblical scholar and am trying to put together a dateline of first-century events. So I'm asking if any experts or non-experts could give their best guesses about these questions:

1) In what (approximate) year was Jesus crucified?

30-36 AD

2) In what years was Saul persecuting Christians?

32 - 38 AD, maybe even earlier.

3) In what year was Saul/Paul's conversion experience?

35 - 41 AD

4) In what year did Paul first go to Jerusalem and meet with (any of) Jesus' disciples?

43- 49 AD

5) In what years were Paul's letters written?

45 - 51 AD

6) In what

year was gMark written?

Earliest estimates are between 50 - 60 AD I think.

7) In what years were the Asia Minor churches (Corinth, etc.) established?

30 - 40 AD

8) In what year was Stephen stoned to death? Was Saul in Jerusalem to witness that?

Probably around 32 - 36 AD, according to scripture yes.

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to offer their opinions on these dates.

Indeed.