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Jesus Paul and Muhammad

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Zxzyx, Jun 11, 2005.

  1. Zxzyx

    Zxzyx Member

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    Continuation of another thread.

    John

    You said that Muhammad taught the same message as Jesus and the prophets but what I read in the Qur’an is very different indeed. I would like to hear how you came to this conclusion. You said Jesus did not call his followers Christians but did Muhammad call his followers Muslims and what difference does either make to anything?

    You say Paul created his own religion. How do you come to this conclusion? I don’t understand you saying that the Romans were Paul’s ‘buddies’ when they killed him.

    Thank you for your time.
     
  2. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    I just had a reply typed up and it erased it when i tried to send it, insha'Allah i will retype something similar soon and send it. sorry for the delay
     
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  3. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    First we must learn the real teachings of Jesus rather than just the selective teachings the council of Nicea wants us to learn, we also need to look more into interpretation rather than just taking the opinions of the church that want to keep the sheep in line. I would recommend a book called "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians" by Robert Eisenmann, a professor and director of Judeo-Christian research at some university, and he had some other credentials i do not remember. Here is a link to some of the teachings of Jesus that did not make it into the bible because they did not all follow the Pauline doctrines or for whatever reason the governing authorities did not want them in there: http://www.thenazareneway.com/ . I just got this link from another RF member (thanks) and i have not read all the extensive material yet. The Quran can also be misinterpreted if one is unfamiliar with the surrounding history. when it says kill the nonbelievers and the like, it is referring to the people that have been attacking them, hence: defend yourself in whatever way necessary. there are many other passages that others like to take out of context. Islam teaches peace, but we should not let others oppress us either.
    Paul is the father of modern christianity and he coined the term christian in order to deify Jesus. Jesus did not name his followers after himself any more than Abraham, Moses, Isaac, or Ishmael did.
    here is an article on Paul if you are interested http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/article.php?a=45
    it raises the question as to whether or not he is the antichrist. He is a self proclaimed persecutor of the real followers of Jesus, theif(he stole from churches), deceiver("using guile, i took you in by deceit"), boaster("...and no one will stop my boasting" - i guess this makes him a hypocrit as well since he also said grace is by faith, not works, lest any man should boast), roman. Paul is also known as the "Liar" by the real followers of Jesus, this is why he says in his letters that he does not lie. The romans saved Paul when he was going to be killed by the real followers of Jesus, something depicted in acts. The Mushlam, the real followers of Jesus and James, did not like Paul because he preached the abrogaton of the law(Paul called these people-"those zealous for the law"). He also had James killed. Jesus and James upheld this law. Jesus also told his followers that when he was gone they should go to James the Just for guidance, not Paul the Liar.
    (12) The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?"
    Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
    - Gospel of Thomas
    Christians will say this is false since James was against Paul and James supported the Torah 100%.
    hopefully this cleared things up a little.
     
  4. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    This is true, but compared to the way that the Romans treated other Jews, Paul was their buddy indeed. When he was still Saul, Paul was a Roman citizen in good standing, as well as the rest of his family. Even though the Romans killed him, the point is that they gave him a respectable Roman execution vs. a lowly Jewish one. Apparently, the way one was killed back in those times meant a lot to them. Personally, I'd rather just stay alive.

    As for creating his own religion, I suppose that one could argue that. Jesus certainly wasn't trying to create an entire new religion, merely to fulfill Jewish prophecies and add to the natural progression of Judaism. Paul, on the other hand, was the one who had to deal with the official rejection by the Jewish faith and carry on Jesus' teachings in his own way. He couldn't have helped but to insert a great deal of his own influence into the Christian Religion.
     
  5. Zxzyx

    Zxzyx Member

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    John

    I have not read that book you mentioned but I do find this idea on Paul interesting. The problem I have with Paul being what you say is I cannot believe God would allow him to do what you suggest. Why would God create Jesus through immaculate conception, create him perfect, allow him the miracles he did and take him up to heaven as Muslims believe in order to bring the message to the Jews only then to have a mere man, Paul, come along right after and corrupt everything Jesus had done. To believe this you have to believe in a bumbling god that has very limited control on his creation and cannot see past his current actions. I think we can umm and ahh over thousands of details and bits of information but it is important to understand what you are left with.

    I have never found any of Paul’s teachings to contradict Jesus’ but you might say I’m reading Paul’s corrupted views of Jesus. One thing to bare in mind is what Paul got for his trouble. If Paul did corrupt Jesus’ sayings then he would be in the position of knowing that fact. He would know for sure, 100% that he was peddling a lie. For something he knew was a lie he went from a respected well educated Jew on his way up the ladder of success to a social out cast hated by his fellow Jews and the Romans. Paul didn’t make any moves to make himself rich or successful or well loved and after being flogged several times shipwrecked three times, stoned and imprisoned he was killed, all for something he knew was a lie. If he had stopped telling these ‘lies’ all this pain would also stop but he did not. One way you might tell a false prophet is by what they gained from their teachings since there have been many and their goal were personal gain. To say Paul was a liar just does not work. People have often been tortured throughout history into saying things that were not true so the torture would stop. Has anyone suffered repeated torture over something they knew was false? Not once does Paul claim any of the glory but rather gives it all to God and Jesus. Why would someone lie in such a way?

    You mentioned Paul as a boaster. I would recommend you look at what he boasts of 2Corinthians 16-33.

    Thank you for your time. Ill try to read your links but I saw there was a lot there so bare with me.

    Zyzyx

    Ps. Who are these ‘the real followers of Jesus’ you mention and where are they now? Ill look up that Gospel of Thomas as well?
     
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  6. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    I'd just like to point out that a lot of the texts linked to on John's referenced site are gnostic in origin - Gnosticism being a totally different perspective on Christianity.

    If you read these texts, you will get confused, especially The Sophia of Jesus Christ. They are cryptic and symbolic - an open mind is essential to their understanding. So, if you have a classical view of Jesus, then only the Gospel of Thomas would really be of any use to you, it might broaden your view of his teachings.
     
  7. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    The purpose of Paul's life was to deceive. He was called a Liar by the followers of Jesus and James. Paul had a lot of knowledge, he knew the truth, but chose to deceive.
    He was taken up to the heavens after his natural death at the age of 120. He did not die on the cross or get magically taken up to heaven to disappear(i can give you a link to a good article on the subject using many biblical references if you want). I do not believe in a bumbling God at all. You ask why God would let this happen. I believe it was to test. The followers of Moses doubted him many times after they were led out of Egypt, this was because they were persuaded by the antichrist at that time (the Sumerian) that was with the group.
    2 main difference in the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul =
    Jesus did not say he was God, Jesus upheld the Torah and said it will not change one jot or one tittle until heavens and earth pass away(they are still here).
    Paul taught that Jesus was a man-god and that the Torah is abolished because it was weak and useless.
    Concerning Paul's boastings, it is irrelevant. He tells us not to boast, and he boasts.
    Paul was on earth to deceive, not to claim glory, even though he did boast a little. As the antichrist he knew he was here to deceive and nothing was going to stop him from deceiving. Jesus was here to teach, nothing was going to stop him from teaching. Even in death Paul continues to deceive and Jesus continues to teach(with their recorded words).
    These are huge differences, Paul's teachings are anti to the teachings of the Christ.
    Paul also said it was weak to be a vegetarian, interestingly this part of the Nazarite oath that is supposed to bring one closer to God. This comment was probably directed at James and his followers since they preached a vegetarian diet and James was definitely vegetarian.
     
  8. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    They were not followers of Paul. They followed the real teachings of Jesus and then they went on to follow James as instructed by Jesus. They called Paul "the Liar". They upheld the Torah rather than believing Paul when he said it was weak and useless.
     
  9. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    Mainstream christianity does reject the gnostic text/esoterical knowledge passed on by Jesus and other prophets; similarly, mainstream islam rejects sufi beliefs. It is more of an in depth, spiritual aspect, a higher level of "reality". Most people will not take the time to contemplate these texts and try to understand what was being said.
    Even the close disciples of Jesus sometimes got confused with his parables.
     
  10. Zxzyx

    Zxzyx Member

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    Why was the purpose of Paul’s life to deceive? What was his motive? What could he possibly have to gain? Why did he not claim any of the glory for himself rather than giving it all to God and Jesus who you say he was against or at least make his life easier?



    What you are talking about is like God giving the Law to Moses and then allowing someone to completely change it and spread their own law. Or after God had finished giving Muhammad all his revelations another man came along with a different message and completely undid all his work. Just to test people! Why would God send Jesus if he knew Paul would undo all his work? If it was a test it made Jesus’ efforts pointless according to you.



    Could you give the Biblical references for what you claim Paul said please? I don’t know it well enough to know what you are referring to.

    Why do you say Paul’s boastings are irrelevant? You have to try and understand what his is saying.

    You said ‘nothing was going to stop Paul from his deceiving’ but do you not believe God has the power to stop a man?

    ‘Paul's teachings are anti to the teachings of the Christ.’ Could you give examples please?



    • God sent Jesus to the Jews
    • Jesus taught the Jews
    • Jesus was taken into heaven
    • Paul came on the scene
    • Paul corrupted Jesus’ teachings making void all God had done recently
    • Paul was tortured and killed by his buddies the Romans
    • What Paul said became the biggest religion in the world
    • What Jesus said from God got trampled on and forgotten
    Is the above what you are saying because I can’t make your theory makes any sense. If you stand back and look at what you are suggesting you have a big mess of a situation that served no purpose and defeated God’s best plans.

    Have I got things right? Please advise.
    Thanks
    Zyzyx
     
  11. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Paul was the antichrist




    Paul said the law God gave to Moses was weak and useless and it was abolished. He then spread his "law of grace" where all one has to do is believe in a man-god and they will be saved. That is why so many christians run around today and tell people if they do not believe in this man-god they will go to hell. The efforts of Jesus were by no means useless, we still have his teachings, though they are not followed by most. There were real followers of Jesus after the crucifiction, they followed James, not Paul. Jesus upheld the Torah, christians say it was abolished!!!.



    which phrases? i will throw out a few, let me know if i get the right ones
    "Yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Torah but through the faith of Jesus Christ, even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Torah, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the Torah." Galatians 2:16
    "But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty, I took you in by deceit."2 Corinthians 12:16

    "As the truth of Christ is in me, no one will stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. Why? Because I don't love you? God knows." 2 Corinthians 11:10-11
    "I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little." 2 Corinthians 11:16
    "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." 2 Corinthians 11:8
    "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the Law with its commandments and regulations." Ephesians 2:13-15
    "But now the Law has come to an end with Christ and everyone who has faith may be justified." Romans 10:4
    (these were copied from the article link posted earlier)


    they are irrelevant because he says that we are saved by grace, not by works, lest any man should boast. when he is a boaster. not exactly leading by example.


    Of course i know God can stop any man from anything, but God allowed this antichrist to be born and was well aware of his mission of deception.


    there are several listed in my last post to you, there are also more listed in the article with the link in my first post.


    Jesus was not magically taken into heaven, he survived the cross and went on to teach others. Paul did not corrupt the teachings of Jesus, it was more of teaching a different message and telling people that is what Jesus taught(the teachings of Jesus are still with us). the people Paul was deceiving did not know Jesus, therefore they would not know the real message of Jesus. Paul could not "teach" the Jews because they knew Jesus and his teachings, that is why they called Paul a liar. you can see several biblical quotes from Paul in the article where he denies being a liar. I do not know the exact details of Paul's death. The teachings of Jesus were not completyely forgotten, they still exist and some still follow them, they are not the christians that follow Paul.

    I am sorry if it does not make sense to you. If you read more books you will understand. maybe i am not explaining it very well. as recommended above, "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians" is a great book on the subject. It is not a big mess, i can assure you. There is no possible way to defeat God's plans. In the end times, most will not believe. God sent Muhammad to clear things up concerning Jesus, just as Jesus said would happen. Muhammad glorified Jesus, just as Jesus said would happen. Muhammad was the prophet that Moses was told would come.

    sorry for the lengthy response
     
  12. Zxzyx

    Zxzyx Member

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    I still don’t understand you saying Paul was the antichrist. Where are you getting this idea? There has to be a reason and if the reason were to deceive or test the followers of Jesus, why would God allow him to be so successful? Why did God only give it a few years between Jesus’ message and Paul’s but so many centuries between Paul and Muhammad? This suggests that God is almost instant to corrupt his own guidance by allowing the ‘antichrist’ but very slow to put it right through Muhammad. It would seem that more people followed Paul than Jesus so does that make him more powerful in your mind? In my mind you cannot just say Paul did what he did because he was the antichrist.



    You say that Paul said the law was weak and useless. Are you paraphrasing, because this is a dangerous thing to do. It sounds like you are making Paul say what you want. Another dangerous thing is taking a verse out of context. Your Galatians 2:16 quote comes in half way through a sentence and your 2 Corinthians 11:10-11 quote ends two words early of a sentence. Those two words can change the whole sentence. I’ve read plenty of comments by Muslims that a Christian has taken a Qur’anic verse out of context to make their point and the reverse is often true. I have to say that it is a lot easier to see the context of the Bible thanks to its largely chronological sequencing.



    Ill try to explain what I understand about Paul’s boasting.

    Paul is writing to a people who have already heard the message but like all people are tempted by the ways of the world and are at risk of falling away. Non-believers and false prophets are tempting the people with their worldly things (money, possessions position etc.) by boasting about them and making others think they are good. Paul responds to these peoples interest in the boastings they hear by telling them what they should value. He is well aware of his own opinions on boasting and lets his readers know this by constantly referring to himself and his actions in doing so as foolish. (I am out of my mind to talk like this) 2 Corinthians 11 v23. There is a strong sense of irony in what he writes that is evident in some of the other quotes you mentioned. Paul goes on to ‘boast’ about a life serving God with earthly pains but heavenly rewards. Through this Paul repeatedly refers to boasting as foolish and wrong and tells what is really important in life in the mock style of a boaster. I think Paul kills two birds here with one stone (if you will excuse the saying).



    You said that Paul did not lead by example, which I take to mean you think this is important. Were there not a number of revelations received by Muhammad that gave him special privileges that his followers were not even supposed to follow?

    You said that Jesus survived the cross. Do you mean that someone took on the likeness of him or he was crucified but came down alive?

    Feel free to make your responses as lengthy as you like. As you can see I find it hard to keep it brief.

    Thank you for all your time and effort on this
    Zyzyx
     
  13. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    John, I respect your beliefs but I also think we need to be careful in painting Paul as the antichrist or depict a certain sect the "true followers of Jesus". There is a reason that certain books never made it into the Bible and I don't believe it to be based on a conspriracy to leave it out because it did not conform to a particular teaching. During Paul's ministry and his sermons letters to Corinth, Thessalonica and Rome, among others, there were many false teachers and so-called prophets who were teaching false doctrine and prophesing to come in the name of Jesus. You also make reference to Paul's persecution of Christians, upon which the Bible very clearly depicts in the New Testament, but it should be emphasized that this was prior to Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus when he was confronted by Jesus Christ with a shout from Heaven. Who has not done things that were terrible and against the will of God prior to being saved? There is a reason some of the writings and books did not make the Bible or clearly do not reasonate in the hearts of many Christians throughout this world. It is believed to be false doctrine and not built on the revealed truth of God (2 Timothy 3:16,17). In regards to Paul being the antichrist, did he ever make and break a peace covenant with Israel as John prophesied in Revelation that the "lawless one" will do, among other things during a period of world rule and authority during the last days? I'm not sure he fits the profile if you do some research regarding the Antichrist. :)
     
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  14. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Salaam,
    Jesus warned many times about antichrists that would come after him.
    As far as who is more powerful, Jesus or Paul, i would say Jesus was more powerful, but more people follow Paul because his message is easier to follow. People in general like to do what is easier for them.
    If you read the article about Paul you would get a better idea of his teachings that are anti to those of Jesus and the followers of Jesus.
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/article.php?a=45
    A more comprehensive article is here: http://www.taliyah.org/articles/paul.shtml
    the bigger article is pretty good, but much longer.
    Paul: "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the Torah made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." Hebrews 7:18-19
    None of these quotes have been taken out of context. if you think they have, please explain. Galatians 2:16 did not include 2:15(the first part of the sentence) because it was irrelevant to the meaning and would have just taken up more space. The 2Corinthians quote is the complete sentence. I repeat, none of those quotes are taken out of context.

    I believe Jesus was put on the cross and taken down while still alive, but unconcious:

    "NOW, when the even was come, Joseph of Arimathea, an honourable councillor, who also waited for the Kingdom of God, came and went in boldly unto Pilate and craved the body of Iesus. (He was a good man and just, and had not consented to the council and deed of them).
    And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead, and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus." 83:1-2
    -Pilate, who would have seem many deaths this way was so surprised at the new Jesus was "dead" already he had to ask a centurion if it was true.


    "And there came also Nicodemus, who at the first came to Iesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred weight. Then took they the body of Iesus and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury." -83:3
    -Why use 100 pounds of healing herbs on a corpse? unless the intention is to heal the body. Also, it is not traditional Jewish custom to wrap a corpse with a hundren pounds of spices/herbs.
    "And they returned and rested the next day, being a high day, and on the day following they bought and prepared spices and ointments and waited for the end of the Sabbath." -83:7
    -They are going back to rub more healing herbs/spices on a corpse that is days old???????

    **quotes from http://www.thenazareneway.com/ght_section_9_lections_80_thru_89.htm#Lection%2083
    This is the Gospel of the Holy Twelve Section 83. This Gospel is the earliest one known and was written by the close disciples of Jesus and is the text upon which the other gospels are based. All of this information is contained in the 4 biblical Gospels as well.
    These things make no sense if Jesus actually was dead. The Quran is vague on the subject and it varies a little with different translations into English, though the Arabic remains the same. The general idea is that a likeness of the death of Jesus was shown to the people.
    I can get much more in depth or direct you to an article on the subject if you are interested.

    what were the revelations by Muhammad that gave him extra priviledges?

    it is interesting, i just read some of this stuff this morning(on the crucifiction), then i get to use it now :)
     
  15. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    That manifestation was not the antichrist of the end times. Like all of us, The spirit of the antichrist will be reborn many times, he will live in many physical bodies. He will fulfill the prophecies in his final manifestation when he is killed by the reborn Jesus.
    I was basing my comments about Paul and the "real followers of Jesus" on historical documents not included in the bible, the ones that were buried to protect them from being destroyed by the governing authorities that want to keep people docile. The ones that most copies of were destroyed by the governing authorities that decided which books were fit for people to read and follow.
    We will have a difference of opinion here i guess :)
     
  16. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    John,

    A: I do not accept the Gospel of the Holy Twelve.

    B: What translation of the Bible do you use for Hebrw 7:18?
     
  17. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    We will always have differences of belief in this area, but that's fine. I am wary of comments you made in regards to a "reborn Jesus". First off, Jesus was not a created being, nor will he be reborn. John 1:1 tells us "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jesus was there from the beginning and is alive and doing well today. There will be nothing reborn of Jesus. He ruled with the Father at the beginning of creation and He will rule at the end. Paul was not at odds with Jesus and carried a message of truth that aligned with the Gospel of Christ, with no deviation. For those other books you refer to that have were alledgedly buried or held back, that clearly are in direct contrast with the authenticated Word of God, these books must be able to stand on it's own in regards to it's alledged truth and power. It clearly does not resonate and have the sustainable power and impact of the Holy Bible that has transformed billions of lives through the Gospel of Christ. :)
     
  18. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    A.I am aware that christians in general reject the Gospel of the Holy Twelve(even though most have not even read it or heard of it), but that does not make it false. Many scholars support it and many early church preachers used it; also it was the text which the biblical gospels were based upon, according to what i have read. Anything that has anything contradictory to christian beliefs will of course be rejected by the church, regardless if it is true or not.
    B. i do not remember where i originally read it, but it says basically the same in the Gideons one i got from a motel(they use nicer words though), it says it is the new king james version: "For on one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,"
     
  19. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    These books have been rejected by the church because they do not support Pauline doctrine, that is why they do not "resonate". Nevertheless, the Gospel of the Holy Twelve is the oldest record of the words/stories of Jesus we have. If you are interested at all you can read more as to the authenticity of the Gospel here: http://www.thenazareneway.com/legend_of_the_lost_gospel.htm
    I am aware of John 1:1, which was taken directly from Hindu vedas by the way. I do not believe that the physical body of Jesus has lived since the beginning. He had a human body, when his name was Jesus, which would grow old and fall apart. I'm not sure what you mean by authenticated word of God since the bible has many internal modifications and mistranslations, it even says in Jeremiah 8-7:9 : "Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of YHWH. How can you say, 'We are wise, for we have the Torah of YHWH,' when actually the lying pen of the Scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the Word of YHWH, what kind of Wisdom do they have?"
    If Jeremiah was telling the truth, which he must be since it has been "authenticated" by the governing authorities in charge of the council of Nicea, then the Torah has been modified. How can you say a book is the word of God when it says in itself that it has been changed by "the LYING pen of the scribes?"
     
  20. Zxzyx

    Zxzyx Member

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    John

    I read that link you offered and found it interesting but there were a few problems.

    I think the author had already made up his mind and has chosen only the verses that seem to back that up. I’m no great believer in arguing over the meaning of one verse so I will try to comment on the whole picture.



    The author starts his paper off quoting Matthew 7 v15-20. This warns of false prophets and tells that the true prophet will be known by his fruits. The author never seems to delve into what fruits Paul produced but rather goes on to note the similarity between the spelling of Paul’s name and the spelling of the word ‘underworld’ just to demonise Paul early on. I would ask you to look at the fruits of Paul’s teachings i.e. look to the world and see the response to the teachings of Paul. Countless charities have been set up to give some kind of help to the last, least and lost of this world, often at great cost to the individual. Is that someone under the influence of the evil one? On the subject of fruits, may I offer Paul’s verse on fruits of the spirit? ‘But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control against such things there is no law’ Galatians 5 v22-23. I ask you to make up your own mind, is this the teaching of the Evil One? Would you disagree with Paul on any of these points? These are the qualities Paul said were good and we should live by and you can see the fruits of this teaching in people who have taken them to heart. To hammer the point home here are the verses that went before the above quote. ‘The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, drunkenness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.’ Galatians 5 v 19-21. Paul tells his listener that by doing these things you will not get into heaven. Does this sound like the teaching of the Antichrist? I believe the devil promotes the acts of the sinful nature as good and tempting. There is no way someone can do evil and what Paul says in Galatians 5 together. You must disregard one or the other.



    The author goes on to liken Paul, as the antichrist, to the devil saying that they are both subtle and crafty. Strangely though, the author a few sentences earlier mentions 2 Corinthians 12 v16 where Paul out rightly calls himself crafty. Can you be crafty or subtle if you tell people you are those things? The author describes this as ‘perplexing’ but seems to assign no further thinking to it but rather takes it at face value. The author also points to Paul saying ‘I robbed other churches’ and still calls him subtle. Is it possible that there is more to what Paul is saying than the author is prepared to investigate?



    I will offer my understanding of the saved by faith or deeds thing that the author claims as a contradiction between James and Paul.

    I believe that the two work perfectly together and are talking on similar subjects but into two different situations.

    You are saved by faith alone. There is nothing a person can do to earn his or her own salvation. Saying ‘I am a good person’ does not work because you are using a human yardstick to measure your goodness but God uses perfection. If you have sinned once then you have fallen short and no amount of good will undo bad. Take life for example. If someone commits murder, rape, theft etc. there is no going back. A murderer cannot restore life, a rapist cannot repair the damage done that will stay with the victim forever and a thief will never regain the trust lost. Bad + Good = Bad & Good not perfection. Only by the grace of God can we face him. You just have to believe in his word.

    If you truly do believe and understand Jesus’ message you would do good works because Jesus said the greatest commandments were to love God completely and love your neighbour as yourself. James was talking to people who thought that by saying they were Christians but who did not change their lives still thought they were saved. They thought they had found a quick and easy way into heaven by saying a ‘magic spell’ but who had obviously missed the whole point.

    To sum up both points, no one can be saved by their works, however good, only by faith in Jesus. However, claiming you believe in Jesus but showing none of the love he was all about suggests that what you believe is not faith in Jesus at all i.e. the faith you have is dead or invalid. The example James gives in verses 14-16 of the chapter (James 2 v17-21) the author strangely or conveniently left out of his quote, explains what he is trying to convey. A person who claims to love Jesus but shows no love for his neighbour is misguided since Jesus said ‘whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine you did for me.’ Matthew 25 v 40



    If Paul was the antichrist and Muhammad was sent to set things straight why is there not more or this mentioned in the Qur’an? I am struggling to find any mention of Paul or the antichrist at all. We see in Jesus’ ‘Sermon on the Mount’ he starts by putting things straight ‘You have heard it said…’ before giving new teachings.



    I have never heard of a church where Paul is worshiped at all. He is seen as a great man who chose the ways of Jesus over those of the world and it cost him more than most but he shows absolutely no regret and encourages others to do the same. To my knowledge Paul’s letters have never been used to elevate Paul but rather to learn about Jesus and his message. The author suggests that Paul’s letters are rather obviously pointing to himself. If what the author of the paper said was true then we would not see the good works done through Paul’s guidance of Jesus’ teachings but rather evil.

    Sorry if I have gone on too much.
    Zyzyx ps. which Jesus said your tagline flesh eating flesh...?
     
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