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Jesus Ordered the Killing of Many People

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Islam, Nov 14, 2006.

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  1. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Did he? This question is aimed towards the Christians.

    As you all know, Christians always make the claim that Jesus is God, they claim that Jesus is the same God of the OT. So basically what we have is this:

    1- Jesus is God

    2- Jesus is the God of the Old Testement

    3- Christians believe that the OT is the inspired word of God

    4- The OT is authentic to the Christian

    5- The God in the OT is Jesus

    So since Jesus is the God of the OT, we shall now look at the God of the OT ordering the KILLINGS of many people:

    Zephaniah 2:12-15

    Zephaniah 2:12-15
    "You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyriaand make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist

    Ezekiel 9:5-7
    "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

    In the Old Testament:
    Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
    Also let us look at Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
    This verse was sent to me by Yusif 65; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him: 2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

    In the New Testament by Jesus and Paul:
    Jesus:
    Note: Please pay close attention to my red emphasis below.
    Let us look at what Jesus said in the New Testament in context:
    Matthew 15:1-9
    1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
    2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
    3 Jesus replied, "
    And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
    4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
    5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
    6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
    7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
    8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
    9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

    There are few points to notice here:
    1- Notice in verse 3, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for breaking the Commands of GOD Almighty.
    2- In verse 4, he used the cursing of parents' punishment as an example. The context, however, is not limited to just this example!
    3- In verses 7,8 and 9, he used a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, to further prove that they are not following the Commands of GOD Almighty.
    4- Jesus clearly had a problem with them not following the punishment of death for cursing the parents or any punishment of death that is commanded in the OT for this matter! In fact, Jesus himself said:
    "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
    "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"

    This clearly means:
    1- Jesus absolutely approved and commanded the following of the OT's Laws regarding apostates!
    2- The fact he commanded death penalty for cursing the parents clearly proves that he also approves of killing apostates as clearly shown in the OT verses above!

    Let us look at Leviticus 20:27 "And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them." The above verses clearly show that the Bible doesn't tolerate apostates. Jesus did honor the Old Testament's laws and ordered his followers to follow the Old Testament until the day of Judgment:
    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"


    Sooo...?

    Source
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Sooo ... it's not only childish polemic, it's plagiarized childish polemic, i.e., deceit.
     
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  3. RevOxley_501

    RevOxley_501 Well-Known Member

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    good eye jay, kudos
     
  4. Pardus

    Pardus Proud to be a Sinner.

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    I might be a stupid post, but unanswered stupidity can be considered valid because it hasn't been shot down.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That is unmitigated nonsense.
     
  6. Pardus

    Pardus Proud to be a Sinner.

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    Sounds like someone is missing the point.
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No - it sounds like someone is committing an ad ignorantiam fallacy by shifting the burden of proof.
     
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  8. CaptainXeroid

    CaptainXeroid Following Christ

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    ***MOD POST***

    The source link has been added to the OP and off topic posts have been deleted. Plagiarism is a serious charge, so everyone needs to remember to cite your sources.
     
  9. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Why dont you just answer me? He did according to you.
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Here's the rub. Christians don't consider that Jesus was the God of the OT. God is the Father, that is the same Father as found in the New Testament. Jesus is the son.

    Christianity is radically different from ancient Judaism for this fundamental reason:
    Ancient Judaism was a provincial religion for a certain people. God lived on the mountain. Then God's presence lived in the Holy of Holies -- in the Temple. Christianity quickly became cosmopolitan, that is, it is not a provincial religion for a certain people.

    Most of the accounts in the OT where God orders people to be destroyed come from an understanding that God is God of the Jews, not God of everyone. The Christian understanding of God is different.
     
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  11. angellous_evangellous

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    These statements do not appear to be intellectually honest to me. Before the doctrine of the Trinity was solidified by confessions, many Christian apologists had to deal with Marcion's objection that the God of the OT was not the Father of the NT. After the doctrine of the Trinity was adobted in both its eastern and western form, Christianity affirmed together that the Father and Jesus are the same God.
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I agree completely. If the Bible is innerrant, then the O.T was, in fact, a historical record. But just how much faith can we have about the interpretation of revelations and the recording of them as a historical record ?

    I far prefer to rely on the words and teachings of Jesus, when he was incarnate. If that is seen as being 'selective', then so be it.
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    If "God is God," and assuming that Jesus worshiped God of the OT (and I think we can safely assume that he did), then Jesus called that God, "Father," and he is the Son of that "Father." But, Jesus seemed to accept that God's actions are not his actions. He ascribes God's actions as actions of the Father. (Even though he does say that "whoever has seen me has seen the Father). Jesus appears to draw a distinction here that we have to respect.

    :edit: I think it's a stretch to say that "Jesus killed lots of people in the OT," because, clearly, he did not. Jesus does not appear in the OT.
     
  14. angellous_evangellous

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    Quite right, we should respect that, but we have the doctrine of the divinity of Christ and a strict monotheism that associates Jesus inextricably with the God of the Old Testament.
     
  15. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Well consider the verses cited above:

    Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
    2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
    3 Jesus replied, "
    And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
    4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'

    5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
    6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
    7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
    8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
    9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"


    It is a rhetorical question posed to the Pharisees and it seems to me He is not advocating they should actually put unruly children to death. In other words the verses are saying well if you claim my followers have broken the law are you no less guilty?

    - Art
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    But I think we have to be careful to not confuse the divinity of Christ with the humanness of Jesus, the Teacher.

    In a very real way, since we are the Body of Christ, are we not associated inextricably with the Christ that is associated inextricably with the God of the OT? Yet we would not say that "we killed people in the OT."

    It is clear that we did not order the killing of many people in the OT, just as it is clear that Jesus did not order the killing of many people in the OT.
     
  17. angellous_evangellous

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    We are responsible for following that God!

    It's an awful responsibility to claim that the God of the OT is our God. :yes:
     
  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Good point (your edit). But the O.P was written as "If you believe that God=Jesus, then the 'killing of lots of people in the O.T", which, I suppose is the way it could be seen to be understood by non Christians.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I think the question is misdirected. I don't think that God = Jesus any more than God = us, for Jesus lived in time, as we live in time. I think that God = Christ, that is, the divine nature of the Son...not his physical nature.

    To answer A_E, yes, we are responsible for following that God! But I think that our world view causes us to follow God differently than the ancient Hebrews.
     
  20. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

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    How can they be different if the preachers teaches 3 god in one to make up the one god?
     
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