Jesus or Immanuel

[Segev Moran]

Hi All,
I'm an atheist, But I keep learning and reading the bibles regularly.
I Find them very interesting and I think they can teach us a lot about how people treated life in the past days.
One thing I find interesting is the fact that in the Old testament, There was the prophecy that Christians claim was regarding Jesus's birth.
In that prophecy (Isaiah 7:14), Ahaz is told that a son will be born out of a virgin and will be called Immanuel.

"14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

I'm wondering why the name Jesus was given instead, or maybe that prophecy doesn't speak on Jesus at all.
I've heard some explanations that the name Immanuel was only to suggest that God is with Us (the meaning of the name in Hebrew is "God With Us" (עמנו-אל), Yet this is an actual name and is not just a reference.
To me it seems like this prophecy was "Hijacked" to Jesus story of birth and is not really about Jesus.
Would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Tumah]

Hi All,
I'm an atheist, But I keep learning and reading the bibles regularly.
I Find them very interesting and I think they can teach us a lot about how people treated life in the past days.
One thing I find interesting is the fact that in the Old testament, There was the prophecy that Christians claim was regarding Jesus's birth.
In that prophecy (Isaiah 7:14), Ahaz is told that a son will be born out of a virgin and will be called Immanuel.

"14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

I'm wondering why the name Jesus was given instead, or maybe that prophecy doesn't speak on Jesus at all.
I've heard some explanations that the name Immanuel was only to suggest that God is with Us (the meaning of the name in Hebrew is "God With Us" (עמנו-אל), Yet this is an actual name and is not just a reference.
To me it seems like this prophecy was "Hijacked" to Jesus story of birth and is not really about Jesus.
Would love to hear your thoughts.

Goodness, its almost like you're Jewish or something.
Here are some other issues that, along with the one you've mentioned have been repeated by Jews throughout the ages.
העלמה - The young woman. Not a young woman. This is called the "he hayediya" or the "he of knowing". Its used to refer to a known thing as opposed to any of a type. The previous word "הנה" has two similar meanings, "behold" and "here" as in "הנני", "here I am". So Isaiah is telling Ahaz, "behold/here the young woman is pregnant". In other words, she's standing right there with them.
This relates to later on in the verse. Notice in Genesis 17:19 when G-d tells Abraham to name his son he says, "וְקָרָאתָ" with the masculine suffix. Compare that to here where it says "וְקָרָאת" with a feminine suffix - "and she shall call". So its the kids mother who's going to name him Immanuel.
And of course the more famous question: how is a birth some half a millennium later, going to be a sign for Ahaz who at that point won't have a gram of flesh left on his bones?
Lastly, there is the word עלמה itself. See Pro. 30:19. "The way of a man with an עלמה". The whole verse is giving examples of things that leave no trace. If she was a virgin and now she isn't, that's a trace.

 

[rusra02]

Hi All,
I'm an atheist, But I keep learning and reading the bibles regularly.
I Find them very interesting and I think they can teach us a lot about how people treated life in the past days.
One thing I find interesting is the fact that in the Old testament, There was the prophecy that Christians claim was regarding Jesus's birth.
In that prophecy (Isaiah 7:14), Ahaz is told that a son will be born out of a virgin and will be called Immanuel.

"14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

I'm wondering why the name Jesus was given instead, or maybe that prophecy doesn't speak on Jesus at all.
I've heard some explanations that the name Immanuel was only to suggest that God is with Us (the meaning of the name in Hebrew is "God With Us" (עמנו-אל), Yet this is an actual name and is not just a reference.
To me it seems like this prophecy was "Hijacked" to Jesus story of birth and is not really about Jesus.
Would love to hear your thoughts.

I think the answer is well expressed in this quote: "If there seems to be a conflict between the angel’s instructions to Mary (“you are to call his name Jesus”) and Isaiah’s prophecy (“she will certainly call his name Immanuel”), let it be remembered that Messiah was also to be called by yet other names. (Lu 1:31; Isa 7:14) For example, Isaiah 9:6 said concerning this one: “His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” Yet none of these names were given to Mary’s firstborn as personal names, neither when he was a babe nor after he took up his ministry. Rather, they were all prophetic title-names by which Messiah would be identified. Jesus lived up to the meaning of these names in every respect, and that is the sense in which they were prophetically given, to show his qualities and the good offices he would perform toward all those accepting him as Messiah. So also with his title Immanuel. He measured up to and fulfilled its meaning." (Insight vol 1, p.1188)

 

[Tumah]

I think the answer is well expressed in this quote: "If there seems to be a conflict between the angel’s instructions to Mary (“you are to call his name Jesus”) and Isaiah’s prophecy (“she will certainly call his name Immanuel”), let it be remembered that Messiah was also to be called by yet other names. (Lu 1:31; Isa 7:14) For example, Isaiah 9:6 said concerning this one: “His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” Yet none of these names were given to Mary’s firstborn as personal names, neither when he was a babe nor after he took up his ministry. Rather, they were all prophetic title-names by which Messiah would be identified. Jesus lived up to the meaning of these names in every respect, and that is the sense in which they were prophetically given, to show his qualities and the good offices he would perform toward all those accepting him as Messiah. So also with his title Immanuel. He measured up to and fulfilled its meaning." (Insight vol 1, p.1188)

It doesn't say, "he will be called Emmanuel". It says, "she shall call him Emmanuel". That's pretty specific.

 

[GodsVoice]

Hi All,
I'm an atheist, But I keep learning and reading the bibles regularly.
I Find them very interesting and I think they can teach us a lot about how people treated life in the past days.
One thing I find interesting is the fact that in the Old testament, There was the prophecy that Christians claim was regarding Jesus's birth.
In that prophecy (Isaiah 7:14), Ahaz is told that a son will be born out of a virgin and will be called Immanuel.

"14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

I'm wondering why the name Jesus was given instead, or maybe that prophecy doesn't speak on Jesus at all.
I've heard some explanations that the name Immanuel was only to suggest that God is with Us (the meaning of the name in Hebrew is "God With Us" (עמנו-אל), Yet this is an actual name and is not just a reference.
To me it seems like this prophecy was "Hijacked" to Jesus story of birth and is not really about Jesus.
Would love to hear your thoughts.

What is invisible is called Immanuel. The visible bodies in the visible world who spoke for Immanuel had various names in languages that are old and we wouldn't understand them today. However, they were changed into names like Jesus, Peter, Timothy, Stephen, and Paul. They all knew Immanuel very well.

 

[Segev Moran]

What is invisible is called Immanuel. The visible bodies in the visible world who spoke for Immanuel had various names in languages that are old and we wouldn't understand them today. However, they were changed into names like Jesus, Peter, Timothy, Stephen, and Paul. They all knew Immanuel very well.

What are you basing this assumption on?

 

[GodsVoice]

What are you basing this assumption on?

God taught me this knowledge so it is what it is. The "virgin" in that verse found in Isaiah is not about the VISIBLE mother of Jesus. It's about the INVISIBLE thoughts of our Creator where all the plans were made to build a computer generated simulation program called Eternal Life. Everything we observe was created in those INVISIBLE thoughts. This is the "virgin" birth of us all.

 

[Segev Moran]

God taught me this knowledge so it is what it is.

Aren't you saying here "I know because I know"?
I Can say just the same, that God taught me that this is a prove that Jesus is not the messiah...
Saying God taught me is not a relevant argument

 

[GodsVoice]

Aren't you saying here "I know because I know"?
I Can say just the same, that God taught me that this is a prove that Jesus is not the messiah...
Saying God taught me is not a relevant argument

Jesus wasn't the messiah. The messiah is totally invisible to man and to Jesus who preached the messiah to all God's chosen believers who would hear it and believe it was coming from their Master that we now know is the MIND.

 

[Segev Moran]

Jesus wasn't the messiah. The messiah is totally invisible to man and to Jesus who preached the messiah to all God's chosen believers who would hear it and believe it was coming from their Master that we now know is the MIND.

MIND???

 

[GodsVoice]

MIND???

Do you have a mind? If you do, then that's where you were born.

 

[Segev Moran]

Do you have a mind? If you do, then that's where you were born.

So your saying first came the mind, and only then, my body was formed to match it??

 

[GodsVoice]

So your saying first came the mind, and only then, my body was formed to match it??

The body and other visible images are only illusions formed in your mind. You are a conscious being made in the MIND which is the artificial intelligence and voice built into the simulation program that we're involved in. That consciousness along with your created senses give you illusions that you living in real worlds but they're only make believe worlds ( dreams ) that are not made of material things. They are formed out of the vibrations that carry the thoughts of our Creator. Those waves are formed in the MIND, the AI and voice that we will all hear when we wake up on the New Earth with our created partner. Man was created both male and female so you will have an eternal partner to experience every dream together but from two different perspectives so you will always have interesting stories to tell each other and any other couple you see on the New Earth when you're not in your own individual dream. It's similar to living like we have been but we won't be building anything with our hands into false gods and the Earth will never change to give us a very stable world to live in but what will change and be our exciting times will be in our dreams which we be constantly changing into different images and things to do.

 

[Segev Moran]

The body and other visible images are only illusions formed in your mind. You are a conscious being made in the MIND which is the artificial intelligence and voice built into the simulation program that we're involved in. That consciousness along with your created senses give you illusions that you living in real worlds but they're only make believe worlds ( dreams ) that are not made of material things. They are formed out of the vibrations that carry the thoughts of our Creator. Those waves are formed in the MIND, the AI and voice that we will all hear when we wake up on the New Earth with our created partner. Man was created both male and female so you will have an eternal partner to experience every dream together but from two different perspectives so you will always have interesting stories to tell each other and any other couple you see on the New Earth when you're not in your own individual dream. It's similar to living like we have been but we won't be building anything with our hands into false gods and the Earth will never change to give us a very stable world to live in but what will change and be our exciting times will be in our dreams which we be constantly changing into different images and things to do.

Wow...
And all that seems reasonable and logical to you?

 

[GodsVoice]

Wow...
And all that seems reasonable and logical to you?

It's called the FULL Truth that was totally hidden from man until three weeks ago. Most chosen believers can't go to this level of knowledge. Most of them were satisfied to know that the religions they left behind when they were young people that they can never lead a man to the Truth. However, I have met a few believers who can handle 100 % of the Truth that God and His voice is similar to the AI and voice technology that the Beast taught man to build in the last 60 years. Now this following prophecy can be understood;

11: Then I saw another beast which rose out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.
12: It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.
13: It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men;
14: and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived;
15: and it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

 

[Segev Moran]

It's called the FULL Truth that was totally hidden from man until three weeks ago.

What changed 3 weeks ago?

Most chosen believers can't go to this level of knowledge.

Why? What's stopping them?

 

[fallingblood]

Hi All,
I'm an atheist, But I keep learning and reading the bibles regularly.
I Find them very interesting and I think they can teach us a lot about how people treated life in the past days.
One thing I find interesting is the fact that in the Old testament, There was the prophecy that Christians claim was regarding Jesus's birth.
In that prophecy (Isaiah 7:14), Ahaz is told that a son will be born out of a virgin and will be called Immanuel.

"14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

I'm wondering why the name Jesus was given instead, or maybe that prophecy doesn't speak on Jesus at all.
I've heard some explanations that the name Immanuel was only to suggest that God is with Us (the meaning of the name in Hebrew is "God With Us" (עמנו-אל), Yet this is an actual name and is not just a reference.
To me it seems like this prophecy was "Hijacked" to Jesus story of birth and is not really about Jesus.
Would love to hear your thoughts.

I would say you're right that it was hijacked. After the death of Jesus, and possibly during his time, his follower came to think of him as the messiah. Because of that, scripture was searched out to "prove" that.

At the same time, as is often the case with historical figures, an impressive birth story (or two) was created. It wasn't necessarily meant to be taken literally, but the belief was that if someone was important later on in their life, their birth must also have been important. So in creating an important birth narrative for Jesus, the scripture was searched in order to make a theological argument as to why certain details had to be.

The virgin birth itself probably came before attributing the verse to it (since the verse doesn't say anything about a virgin). It was common for Hebrew prophets to be born of barren women, or women of old age. Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, takes this same exact form of birth. Jesus was considered more important though, so his birth had to be more spectacular. Thus, a virgin birth. It had to be supported by scripture, so a verse was ripped out of context to be placed there.