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Jesus or Else

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    So is jesus still jesus before and after his existence on earth based on your belief system?


    are we the same being before/after this existence as terrestrials in you belief system?
     
    #1 Fool, Aug 25, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  2. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    um, no. i meant are we the same person before/after death given we're not terrestrial any longer
     
  3. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    even though you left your vehicle(chariot) in the earth?
     
  4. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    I’ve never been the same person.
    Personhood is momentary.
    But like frames in a movie, it seems continuous.
     
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  5. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    We here to apply our knowledge of good and evil, it can go both ways but the system biased in ‘ the lighter heart’ way.
     
  6. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    It's an idea that makes absolutely no sense at all, and flies in the face of the evidence we do have of how the mind operates.

    Simple example: brain damage. People lose all sorts of things when they experience detrimental enough brain damage. Lose the ability to speak/read, lose levels of maturity of cognitive function, lose memories, lose whole swaths of what they would have considered their "self." If you "are who you are" when you die, and you have experienced such damage that fundamentally changed aspects of your "self," then which "version" of yourself are you in the "afterlife?" I've seen this question put to (and I have put this question to) theists time and time again and have never, ever seen an adequate explanation/rebuttal/excuse. And most often the point is ignored altogether. In those situations I feel my hand is forced, and that I have to assume that the person who was asked is entirely afraid of the implications of the scenario. That they completely understand that it is damning evidence against the idea of a "self" (meaning consciousness/personality and memories) continuing on in some fashion without the body. They completely understand this, but in their foolish intellectual stupor their fear forces them to hope there is just some "magical resolution" that "fixes" any issues or glitches in "God's plan" or "fate," etc. In other words, in the ducking dodging or ignoring of the question... I can't help but see abject cowardice.
     
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  7. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    That was a typical Saturday night for years. But some of the visuals were amazing.

    Seriously though, what we are talking about here is a stubborn and pointless attempt to solidify and immortalise the ego. Such beliefs are, IMO, the absolute antithesis of wisdom.

    Your point about which version of us will live eternally is classic. It amazes me how people avoid such pertinent questions, the lack of effort to actually think this through, considering how important they claim it is.
     
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  8. Aniiz

    Aniiz Member

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    Why don't you ask Him?
     
  9. Politesse

    Politesse Amor Vincit Omnia

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    How could we ever cease to exist? We are made of eternal stuff. A flower doesn't exist any less today because it took the form of a bulb last week. This is true of everything, but I think Jesus was at literal pains to demonstrate that death is nothing to fear.
     
  10. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    And if we did...who would there be to care ?

    Have you ever been anaesthetised ?

    Absolute zero. No sense of existence between “Count from ten down to one’ and ‘aah, you’re awake’.
    Absolutely nothing, and not even a sense that time had passed. No soul. No atman. No perfect objectlees awareness. NOTHING.

    And it didn’t bother you at all, because there was no you to bother.

    The simplicity of it ! After all that fuss about heaven and hell !
     
  11. Aniiz

    Aniiz Member

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    There are two dimensions of your soul one part is the physical consciousness the other part is the spiritual consciousness.

    Your physical dimension it's not aware of your spiritual consciousness that is why you are unaware of it.
     
  12. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    This is a fantastic summation of my thoughts on the matter also. Both the ideas that afterlife claims are attempts (potentially conscious through hubris, or subconsciously driven by the ego itself) to somehow cling to existence and forestall thoughts of an ultimate demise, and that succumbing to the desire to claim immortality, especially in the face of all evidence that points to the contrary, is anything but wisdom.
     
  13. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I believe so.
     
  14. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    There is an anaesthetic called ketamine which is a major psychedelic.
    If you inject around 100 mg, you will most likely have a direct unmediated experience of God.
    Except there is no ‘you’ having the experience. It is awesome.
    Ketamine shuts down most brain activity. The frontal lobe (wherein lies the ‘person’ you think you are) goes quiet. No time, space or identity.
    All that remains active is the deep ‘lizard core’, the limbic system.

    “The limbic system, also known as the paleomammalian cortex, is a set of brainstructures located on both sides of the thalamus, immediately beneath the medial temporal lobe of the cerebrum primarily in the midbrain.”

    In this state, 80% of test subjects (not undergoing surgery) report experiences of ‘God’, ‘aliens’ or some other variant of ‘Higher Consciousness’. This is why ketamine is not generally used on adults, despite being the safest anaesthetic of all. Adults often subsequently have an existential crisis, particularly the religious, but children take it in their stride.

    I have personally observed various people, mostly ordinary enough spuds with no theistic belief, entering that state. Typically, just as the effect begins, and while a few ‘personality and language’ neurones are still firing, they say something like “oh my god ! You can’t die !”

    As Tim Leary once said, “on a scale of 1 to 10, where cannabis is 1, and LSD is 3, ketamine is 10”

    The point is, that is the quiescent state of the brain, and it is interpreted as The Most Holy.
    K-holy. LOL.

    Do you think that is actually heaven ?

    It is a brain state.
     
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