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Jesus on the cross.And something the crowd said.

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
When Jesus was on the cross.They(the crowd) thought Elias could save him(Jesus)Do you agree with them?I believe he could of.:)

This is all right here:

Matthew 27:46-49
King James Version

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

I got this from this website: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 27:46-49 - King James Version
 
Last edited:

pearl

Well-Known Member
Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?: Jesus cries out in the words of Ps 22-2a, a psalm of lament that is the Old Testament passage most frequently drawn upon in this narrative. In Mark the verse is cited entirely in Aramaic, which Matthew partially retains but changes the invocation of God to the Hebrew Eli, possibly because that is more easily related to the statement of the following verse about Jesus’ calling for Elijah.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
When Jesus was on the cross.They(the crowd) thought Elias could save him(Jesus)Do you agree with them?I believe he could of.:)

This is all right here:

Matthew 27:46-49
King James Version

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

I got this from this website: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 27:46-49 - King James Version

What are you suggesting Frank?
You jump to conclusions by reading into passages, things that you want to insert. But who is Eli or Elias?

The translation is there in verse 46. Jesus was calling out to his God, asking why he had not yet rescued him from this tortuous situation? In order for Jesus to die, God had to withdraw his spirit to allow death to overtake him. That was his mission. Why would he be calling on Elijah, who was long dead?

Many names in Hebrew incorporate “el” (“God” in Hebrew) Elijah, Elisha, Michael, Samuel and a host of other names.

People mistaking that Jesus was calling on Elijah, is easy to understand because Elijah means “God is Jah”. He was not calling on Elijah (Elias) because Elijah had been in his grave for hundreds of years.....he was calling on Jehovah.

The role of Elijah was as God’s prophet and one who went before the people with God’s judgment messages.

He is mentioned prophetically at the transfiguration along with Moses as representing aspects of God’s Kingdom. Jesus as its King, Moses representing the Law, and Elijah representing the Prophets. These were not physically present, but seen in a vision.

John the Baptist had a role like Elijah, preparing the way for the people to accept their Messiah. The Jews needed to repent in order to accept Jesus as the one they expected to arrive at that time.

Read here...
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001729
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Bible suggests Elijah was indeed alive, not dead:

. This prophet, taken up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11), was believed to come to the help of those in distress, but the evidences of that belief are all later than the gospels.
After Elijah had learned mercy during his retreat at the Wadi Cherith, he teaches the widow of Zarephath to believe in The Word of God and confirms her faith by his urgent prayer: God brings the widow's child back to life.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Bible suggests Elijah was indeed alive, not dead:

Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him.
Matt. 17:3
Read on....Jesus told them not to mention “the vision” to anyone.
A vision is something that can be seen but is not real. (Matthew 17:1-9) The only real person was Jesus.

If no one went to heaven before Jesus, then where were Elijah and Moses, if they were still alive? (John 3:13)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Some visons may well be real and, generally speaking, they were typically regarded as being real.

Also, a reminder that both Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven according to the Tanakh.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...If no one went to heaven before Jesus, then where were Elijah and Moses, if they were still alive? (John 3:13)

I think, if person went to heaven, he is still alive. And I believe Moses and Elijah came from heaven and were not exactly like normal physical beings, more like angels.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think, if person went to heaven, he is still alive. And I believe Moses and Elijah came from heaven and were not exactly like normal physical beings, more like angels.
It really doesn’t matter what we think....what does scripture say?
Jesus said it was a vision.....do you doubt him?

The dead are not alive according to King Solomon...
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10)

Solomon’s Father, King David was a man agreeable to God’s heart....and yet the apostle Peter said...
For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” (Acts 2:34-35)

David himself wrote...
“His spirit [breath] goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.


There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Bible, so there is no conscious (thinking) part of man that departs from the body at death.
Resurrection is a return to this life, as Jesus demonstrated when he raised his friend Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)
 

1213

Well-Known Member
It really doesn’t matter what we think....what does scripture say?
Jesus said it was a vision.....do you doubt him?...

Please show the scripture where Jesus says that?

The dead are not alive according to King Solomon...
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10)...

If you read it till the end, you notice also this:

…But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.
Ecc. 11:9

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, And the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Ecc. 12:7

So, body may be destroyed, but not necessary soul.

There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Bible, ...

I agree with that, because:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. …
Matt. 10:28
 

Bree

Active Member
When Jesus was on the cross.They(the crowd) thought Elias could save him(Jesus)Do you agree with them?I believe he could of.:)

This is all right here:

Matthew 27:46-49
King James Version

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

I got this from this website: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 27:46-49 - King James Version


Elias is 'Elijah' the prophet.

Perhaps they did think the prophet would come back and save him. But may i ask, why do you think Elias is this verse means 'jesus'?
 

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
When Jesus was on the cross.They(the crowd) thought Elias could save him(Jesus)Do you agree with them?I believe he could of.:)

This is all right here:

Matthew 27:46-49
King James Version

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

I got this from this website: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 27:46-49 - King James Version

Elias is 'Elijah' the prophet.

Perhaps they did think the prophet would come back and save him. But may i ask, why do you think Elias is this verse means 'jesus'?

If you look I separated the two words.By spelling them like this (crowd) and (Jesus).:)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Please show the scripture where Jesus says that?
Matthew 17:9...
“As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”

If you read it till the end, you notice also this:
…But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.
Ecc. 11:9
Ecclesiastes 11:9 (the whole verse)
“Rejoice, young man, while you are young, and let your heart be glad in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and go where your eyes lead you; but know that the true God will bring you into judgment for all these things.”

What judgment is that? According to Jesus, it is the one they get after their resurrection which does not occur until Jesus is acting as King of God’s Kingdom.
Only then was the resurrection to take place.....

John 5:28-29...
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

This was a future event because the dead are confined to their graves until Jesus calls them out of it. The period of judgment takes place during the 1,000 years of his reign. Both the ‘righteous and the unrighteousness’ are called out of the same place. Those who remained faithful to their death are raised to life, but those who died in ignorance, and perhaps did vile things because of it, will have a period of judgment with opportunity to get to know God and his Christ that they never had before. Those who are alive at “the time of the end” of this world system, will have had their judgment already, since the “good news of the kingdom has already been preached to them. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Matthew 24:14)

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, And the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Ecc. 12:7
So, body may be destroyed, but not necessary soul.
What is the spirit? It is not the soul. These words are not interchangeable because they mean two entirely different things.

A “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing creature...both man and animals are called “souls” in Genesis. This word never means a disembodied spirit.

“Spirit” is completely different and refers to the animating force that keeps all living things breathing. Adam was given this “breath (spirit) of life” to animate his lifeless body. Adam was not given a soul, but became one when God started him breathing.....(Genesis 2:7)

Ecclesiastes3:19-20
“for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.”

[/quote]I agree with that, because:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. …
Matt. 10:28[/QUOTE]
“Hell” here is “Gehenna”, not “hades”. There is so much that is mistranslated in many older Bibles. Many of the more modern ones will make a distinction between Gehenna and hades because they are two very different destinations.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Matthew 17:9...
“As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”…

Thanks. It is interesting that WEB translation says it differently:

As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Don't tell anyone what you saw, until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."
Matthew 17:9

That is one reason why I think it was not vision in sense that it was seen only in mind, not physically.

…This was a future event because the dead are confined to their graves until Jesus calls them out of it. The period of judgment takes place during the 1,000 years of his reign….

On the other hand, Bible tells that happened also like this:

The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Matt. 27:52

And I think those were in spiritual body form. And this is also one reason why I think spirit is the person and it can be called also a soul.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 15:44
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thanks. It is interesting that WEB translation says it differently:

As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Don't tell anyone what you saw, until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."
Matthew 17:9

That is one reason why I think it was not vision in sense that it was seen only in mind, not physically.

Are you splitting hairs to accommodate your view? What they saw was a vision.
Please consult Strongs Concordance and see its definition of the word translated “vision” in the majority of Bibles.....
G3705 - horama - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)

I actually couldn’t find one popular translation that didn’t use the word “vision” except the NIV, which I do not consider to be an very accurate translation.

The Mounce Interlinear translates it as “vision”, so what is a vision? Peter had a vision of some ‘unclean animals which he was told to slaughter and eat’ but what he saw was not real, was it?

On the other hand, Bible tells that happened also like this:

The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Matt. 27:52
Well, if this was a ‘resurrection of the saints’ then this was a very noteworthy event because these were to be raised as immortal spirits and be taken to heaven.....so how did people see their bodies in the cemetery? And why was such a outstanding event mentioned only briefly and in only one gospel account?
How did those who will rule with Christ get to be resurrected before he was?
Could it be that the earthquake that occurred when Jesus died simply tipped the bodies out of their tombs? And the ones who saw that reported it to those in the city? That is more in keeping with what the rest of the Bible says.

And I think those were in spiritual body form. And this is also one reason why I think spirit is the person and it can be called also a soul.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 15:44
And I believe that you are stretching the Bible’s words to accommodate what you wish to believe.
Being as Jesus was raised as a spirit, (i.e. not in a physical body,) unless he appeared in materialised form, no one could have seen him. Since it was not lawful for Jews to communicate with spirits, he always “appeared” in material form, to communicate with his apostles, just as angels had done in the past.

He remained on the earth for 40 days after his resurrection but he did not stay with his apostles as he had for the previous three and a half years. All the accounts after he was raised, say that he ”appeared” to his disciples. On one occasion he actually “disappeared” right before their eyes. A spiritual body is not a physical one.

Now Jesus had promised that he would go to his Father in heaven to “prepare a place for them” and that he would return to take them home to be where he was. Does that account of the saints whose bodies were “raised” at the moment Jesus breathed his last human breath, fit anything else that the Bible says about the resurrection of the saints?

When was the resurrection of the saints to take place?.....
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 ESV)

Do you see the timeframe for the resurrection? It was yet future when Paul wrote that.....so, it shows that interpretation of Matthew 27:52 (accepted by many) to be completely in error.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...I actually couldn’t find one popular translation that didn’t use the word “vision” except the NIV, which I do not consider to be an very accurate translation.

The Mounce Interlinear translates it as “vision”, so what is a vision? Peter had a vision of some ‘unclean animals which he was told to slaughter and eat’ but what he saw was not real, was it?...

I think World English Bible is one of the accurate and also popular. And in this case, I think it is correct, because the meaning it has, fits to the story. When seeing something is in vision, as something that doesn’t really happen, it comes clear also from the context.

… in a trance I saw a vision: a certain container descending, like it was a great sheet let down from heaven by four corners. It came as far as me….
Acts 11:5

Peter tells he was in a trance when he saw it. That is why I think it was something not concrete. However, it might also be so, I can’t be sure about it.

Matt. 17:1-3 tells that several people saw a same thing and it does not speak about trance and they acted like it was really happening. However, I think it is still also possible that it was just a vision, I just think it is not probable in this case.

And with vision I mean something that is seen in the mind, not physically. However, it is possible to call a vision also something that is seen physically, which is why the word vision in this case doesn’t really tell was it physical or in minds level.

...And why was such a outstanding event mentioned only briefly and in only one gospel account?
...

Perhaps because the other mentions were destroyed by the leaders, after all, disciples of Jesus were persecuted and killed, at least if we believe what the Bible tells. That is a reason to assume, if there were other mentions, they were well hidden, or destroyed.

...When was the resurrection of the saints to take place?.....
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 ESV)

Do you see the timeframe for the resurrection? It was yet future when Paul wrote that.....so, it shows that interpretation of Matthew 27:52 (accepted by many) to be completely in error.

But that is speaking of the “dead in Christ”, not about the older group of people.
 
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