Jesus' Odd Request

[Skwim]

It's quite easy to understand, If a person understood the three earth ages. But then the bible wasn't written for everyone, The bible was written for and intended for God's elect and very elect people. To give them instructions how to over come the things during the tribulation.

When you don't know the answer, fine.

Have a good day.

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[Skwim]

They were following orders unaware that they were killing an innocent man

But he wasn't innocent. He was found guilty of blasphemy, an offence punishable with death. In any case, so what? As I just told BilliardsBall: If somebody wanted you to do X, and you did so thinking it was Y, what is it that they should forgive?

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[Anna Therese]

But why would you forgive a street gang for doing what you wanted?

Did you read my reply to you in this thread?

 

[Skwim]

Did you read my reply to you in this thread?

I'm sure I did, but let me go back and check..................................................................................... Yup, I did, and to quote you.

"It's not a question of whether or not those who were crucifying Jesus Christ (God the Son made man) deserve forgiveness."​

And in one respect your right; it wasn't the question I asked. I asked:

So just what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?
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Want to try again?

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[Cockadoodledoo]

When Jesus said “Forgive them for they know not what they do”, I’ve always thought he meant “Forgive everybody for their sins”. I don’t think he was just referring to the Roman Soldiers, the Roman rulers, or the Jewish leaders or whoever, he was asking God to forgive all of humanity, for all have sinned.

Jesus died to take the sins of the world upon himself, to forgive everybody.

 

[Faithofchristian]

When you don't know the answer, fine.

Have a good day.

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It's not whether I know the answer, But people critizing what they don't understand

 

[Skwim]

It's not whether I know the answer, But people critizing what they don't understand

So now asking a question amounts to criticism. Nice dodge, but I'm not buying it. You not only don't have a reasonable answer, but you can't admit as much. Understood.

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[Anna Therese]

I'm sure I did, but let me go back and check..................................................................................... Yup, I did, and to quote you.

"It's not a question of whether or not those who were crucifying Jesus Christ (God the Son made man) deserve forgiveness."​

And in one respect your right; it wasn't the question I asked. I asked:

So just what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?
​

Want to try again?.

Well, first allow me to reiterate my first reply in reference that your OP.

It's not a question of whether or not those who were crucifying Jesus Christ (God the Son made man) deserve forgiveness. His prayer in Luke 23:34 is an example of His perfect love. It's also an example that His desires men should imitate towards his fellow man, or, as St. Augustine says, "Love your enemies in such a way that you would desire to make them your brothers."


So exactly what was it that Our Lord meant when He said: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"? Jesus Christ was interceding for those who were in the very act crucifying Him because they did not know - in their sheer fury, blasphemies and madness - that they were crucifying their Savior, their very LIFE!


St. Augustine sheds the brilliant light of truth in a sermon he gave:


"After so many things the godless Jews committed against Him, repaying Him evil for good, didn't He say, as He hung on the Cross, Father, forgive them, because they do not know what they are doing (Luke 23:34)? He prayed as man, as God with the Father, He heard the prayer. Even now, you see, He prays in us, prays for us, is prayed to by us. He prays in us as our High Priest, prays for us as our Head, is prayed to by us as our God. So when He was praying as He hung on the Cross, He could see, and He could foresee; He could see all His enemies, He could foresee that many of them would become His friends. That's why He was interceding for them all. They were raging, He was praying. They were saying to Pilate Crucify! (Luke 23:22); He was crying out, Father, forgive. He was hanging from the cruel nails, but He didn't lose His gentleness. He was asking for pardon for those from whom He was receiving such hideous treatment.



They were raging, barking furiously all around Him, shaking their heads at him - their far from sane heads - and as one man, like so many raving lunatics, raging on all sides against the Supreme Physician set there in their midst. He was hanging there and healing them. He was suspended there, and yet dispensing goodness. He wouldn't come down from the Cross, because out of His Blood He was preparing a medicine for their frenzy. Finally, after His Resurrection He cured those whose utter insanity He had tolerated as He hung on the Cross. There you have why Christ came; not to destroy what He had found, but to seek and save what had been lost (Luke 19:10), so that by loving His raging enemies, He might make them into believers and His friend."


So you see, Jesus Christ's prayer was an example of His perfect love - a love that He calls all to imitate and especially to reciprocate because He is our LIFE.


Do you now understand the answer to your question?

 

[Skwim]

Well, first allow me to reiterate my first reply in reference that your OP.

It's not a question of whether or not those who were crucifying Jesus Christ (God the Son made man) deserve forgiveness.

Which is why I didn't ask it, but asked

So just what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness? ​

So exactly what was it that Our Lord meant when He said: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do"? Jesus Christ was interceding for those who were in the very act crucifying Him because they did not know - in their sheer fury, blasphemies and madness - that they were crucifying their Savior, their very LIFE![/quote]
So,what? Why should god blame them for carrying out his wish that Jesus fulfill his mission by giving up his life? If they had known that Jesus was their savior it's quite possible they would not carry out their job, or in doing so would have life-long regret. So perhaps, it was in their best interest that they didn't know or at least become convinced Jesus was their savior. Ask yourself, would it have been better that no one carry out god's wishes; that all the Roman soldiers refused to crucify Jesus?

And, [please read carefully] among those who helped crucify Jesus, why would knowing that Jesus could be their savior not require forgiveness, but not knowing that Jesus could be their savior would require forgiveness?

Do you now understand the answer to your question?

Not at all. It doesn't make sense.

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[Thief]

But why would you forgive a street gang for doing what you wanted?

incorrect assumption

street gangs ....and pissed off authorities
behave in predictable manner

He knew what would happen as He cleared the temple

but no one else was up for the job

and the pay check.....was fatal

 

[Anna Therese]

So,what? Why should god blame them for carrying out his wish that Jesus fulfill his mission by giving up his life? If they had known that Jesus was their savior it's quite possible they would not carry out their job, or in doing so would have life-long regret. So perhaps, it was in their best interest that they didn't know or at least become convinced Jesus was their savior. Ask yourself, would it have been better that no one carry out god's wishes; that all the Roman soldiers refused to crucify Jesus?

The foreknowledge of God does not force a person's will to do evil. Rather, that same foreknowledge, having foreseen the wickedness of men towards the Savior of mankind, permitted it, because He also foresaw the good He would draw from it.

God's desires that all men turn away from evil and live.


Matthew 23:37- "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?"

Ez. 33:11- "Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel"

And [please read carefully] among those who helped crucify Jesus, why would knowing that Jesus could be their savior not require forgiveness, but not knowing that Jesus could be their savior would require forgiveness?

Not at all. It doesn't make sense.

Not could be, for that betrays doubt instead of knowledge. Knowing Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind and loving Him as He deserves does not require forgiveness because that's very reason for which He came - to save men from eternal death.

What is blameworthy and does require forgiveness is the malice of men in crucifying the Savior Jesus Christ - raging malice by which they blinded themselves and made themselves His enemies and for which our Lord, in a perfect act of love, uttered those words which are the words of life for so many countless souls throughout the ages...

 

[Skwim]

incorrect assumption

'Tweren't an assumption at all, but a question. Please note the question mark "?"

Not could be, for that betrays doubt instead of knowledge. Knowing Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind and loving Him as He deserves does not require forgiveness because that's very reason for which He came - to save men from eternal death.

What is blameworthy and does require forgiveness is the malice of men in crucifying the Savior Jesus Christ - raging malice by which they blinded themselves and made themselves His enemies and for which our Lord, in a perfect act of love, uttered those words which are the words of life for so many countless souls throughout the ages...

I give up. You don't win. I just give up.

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[Thief]

'Tweren't an assumption at all, but a question. Please note the question mark "?"

the question mark makes it more personal....
and ....no....I would not forgive a street gang for beating me

and I would not want to be the Roman soldiers that performed the execution
or Judas
or Hitler
or anyone else of like mind

 

[qaz]

He didn't abolish the law, he lived it, and measured up to it, and fulfilled it. Once something is fulfilled is it still required?

If you had a prophecy that said you were going to do something. Once that had been completed, it would no longer be required.

We are now under a new covenant. (or contract if you will) The things under the old covenant are no longer required of us, unless they happen to be something that is still included in the new covenant.

that's simply not what jesus christ said. he clearly stated that until the second coming "not a iota" of the law will pass. it seems to me quite the opposite of "the things under the old covenant are no longer required of us".

 

[Kenny]

CONSIDER

Jesus was put on earth to save humanity, or as much of it as he could
John 6:35 & 38-40
35 Jesus said to them . . .38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Jesus knew this could only be accomplished by giving up his life; he predicted his death.
Matthew 20:17-19
17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Mark 10:32-34
32 They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”

However, at the moment of crucifixion Jesus says.

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
​

So just what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?

After all, they're doing exactly what Jesus and god had expected of them.

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I really don't see how you got from point a to point b unless that is what you want it to say.

Knowing what someone is going to do doesn't translate into a get-out-of-jail-free card. Forgiveness was necessary for mercy to be extended.

 

[Kenny]

that's simply not what jesus christ said. he clearly stated that until the second coming "not a iota" of the law will pass. it seems to me quite the opposite of "the things under the old covenant are no longer required of us".

Or... you still need the law to know that you need a Savior?

 

[Anna Therese]

I give up. You don't win. I just give up..

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible. St. Thomas Aquinas

You were given the answer to your question but bad will blinds your eyes from seeing, your mind from understanding, and your heart from acknowledging the very truth. In the end, you are the loser because your questions do not come from sincere motive.

 

[Skwim]

I really don't see how you got from point a to point b unless that is what you want it to say.

What are points a and b?

Knowing what someone is going to do doesn't translate into a get-out-of-jail-free card. Forgiveness was necessary for mercy to be extended.

If someone does exactly what you want (in this case, the soldiers killed Jesus, which is what god and Jesus wanted) what is there to forgive?

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[Kenny]

What are points a and b?

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What Jesus said vs your conclussion


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If someone does exactly what you want (in this case, the soldiers killed Jesus, which is what God and Jesus wanted) what is there to forgive?

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Again... what God and Jesus knew was going to happen doesn't translate into absolving the person of sin.

In a battle, one may know what the enemy will do and you may want them to do it, but does that mean the enemy is innocent? In actuality, Jesus KNEW that it wasn't really the people that did it but rather it was the manipulation of Satan in the lives of the people and thus, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Many times, in a battle, one person will give their lives as a bait to save others and know the enemy will take the bait.

As it is written, "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve." and again, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

The pattern, since Genesis, is Satan trying to deceive mankind starting with Eve. Those deceived are simply being manipulated by Satan and his dominions.

 

[tayla]

So just what is it that those responsible for his crucifixion don't know that deserves forgiveness?

After all, they're doing exactly what Jesus and god had expected of them.

The Bible is fiction; that's the answer to your questions.