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Jesus loves you

JJ50

Well-Known Member
But actually, the "Biblical God" is a reflection of boths points of view that humans have about God. You find both a God of distributive justice, as well as retributive justice on its pages. The Bible is a collection of shifting human perspectives of the Divine in human history and culture. You can actually map out the shifts matching to the worlds they were part of at the time. In times of peace, God is fair and just and calling people to peace. In times of conflict and oppression, God is vindictive and punishing.

This becomes a tension for people who see God as Love, when they read about a jealous vindictive deity. And incomprehensible to those who see God as wrathful and frightening to hear of unconditional love. Somehow, that unconditional love becomes distorted to have firm conditions attached to them.

All of it is reflective our own individual and collective experiences of the ourselves in the face of the Absolute, or God. What the "Biblical God" is, is a picture of our own diverse and often warring natures between peace and war, love and fear, compassion and indifference.

So you believe as I do the Biblical god is a human creation?
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
"Jesus loves you"

Is this just a trite cliche Christians say to others, something kids are taught in Sunday school or sing in a children's song? Or is it a profound reality with eternal impact that the Creator of heaven and earth loves you?

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. John 15:9

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. John 15:13

God is benevolent towards all mankind and fatherly to the elect, the church, believers
God's love for his holiness will protect it by justice and wrath for example
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
God is benevolent towards all mankind and fatherly to the elect, the church, believers
God's love for his holiness will protect it by justice and wrath for example
Have you ever read the Bible? There is nothing good about the god featured there, even the worst of humans is a heck of a lot better than that evil entity, assuming it exists.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you believe as I do the Biblical god is a human creation?
I believe God exists, but God is understood in different ways for differing reasons. What the "Biblical God" is, is not any one single thing. There are passages of scripture which definitely support and express the view of God as affirming, life giving, loving, hopeful, just, fair, compassionate, forgiving, transcendent, and sacred. You find this image of God as a very real human experience of the Divine. These are descriptions of experience. This is the "Biblical God" as an expression of love and hope and truth.

But you also find God as an expression of fear. That's also the "Biblical God". Both, opposite view of God exist within the biblical tradition. So the "Biblical God" is not a single thing. They are differing views of what God is. One comes from the interior spaces of subjective experience. The other comes from exterior spaces of fear of death and destruction. The Biblical God is different perspectives, coming from different experiences of a life and reality, or God.

I think that's what the other poster meant when they said to you that the Bible is a collection of books. They are written from different perspectives, as described above. The image you see of Jesus in the Gospels riding into Jerusalem on a donkey of peace with a message of nonviolence and hope, contrasts starkly with the blood-soaked Christ riding on a war horse, celebrating vultures feasting on the corpses of kings he just slayed, creating a river of blood 200 miles long as the centerpiece for his wedding with his chosen ones. Very, very, very different views being expressed there.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
I believe God exists, but God is understood in different ways for differing reasons. What the "Biblical God" is, is not any one single thing. There are passages of scripture which definitely support and express the view of God as affirming, life giving, loving, hopeful, just, fair, compassionate, forgiving, transcendent, and sacred. You find this image of God as a very real human experience of the Divine. These are descriptions of experience. This is the "Biblical God" as an expression of love and hope and truth.

But you also find God as an expression of fear. That's also the "Biblical God". Both, opposite view of God exist within the biblical tradition. So the "Biblical God" is not a single thing. They are differing views of what God is. One comes from the interior spaces of subjective experience. The other comes from exterior spaces of fear of death and destruction. The Biblical God is different perspectives, coming from different experiences of a life and reality, or God.

I think that's what the other poster meant when they said to you that the Bible is a collection of books. They are written from different perspectives, as described above. The image you see of Jesus in the Gospels riding into Jerusalem on a donkey of peace with a message of nonviolence and hope, contrasts starkly with the blood-soaked Christ riding on a war horse, celebrating vultures feasting on the corpses of kings he just slayed, creating a river of blood 200 miles long as the centerpiece for his wedding with his chosen ones. Very, very, very different views being expressed there.

And which passages might those be? I have read that book many times in my life, and each time I read it, my attitude towards the Biblical god is more than confirmed. It was a great relief to me when I lost my faith as a young person.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And which passages might those be?
Any of the Wisdom tradition scriptures, such as Proverbs, the Psalms, the Beatitudes of Jesus, for instance. Plenty of good stuff within the authentic letters of Paul too. As well as the Eschatological tradition such as the Kingdom of God vision which envisions a world of peace ruled by distributive justice where all have enough and there are no haves and have nots, as well as a world of non-violence.

There are plenty of verses that speak to these, and they are those which people most call forth when they speak of the love of God.

I have read that book many times in my life, and each time I read it, my attitude towards the Biblical god is more than confirmed. It was a great relief to me when I lost my faith as a young person.
I'm sure it was confusing to hear about a God of Love, and want to believe in that, yet be confronted by an image of God which was quite contrary to that hope. If the Bible is viewed as "The Inerrant Word of the Great God", that leaves one a bit terrified. How can God be so loving as to number every hair on our head, yet so vicious, spiteful, petty, vengeful, as to cast people into a pit of flames? These are very different images.

If you get rid of this mythology of the Bible as "The Inerrant Word", then what it reveals is the divinely inspired insights of truth and wisdom, the path of truth and justice for all. It also reveals the very human behavior of projecting our own cultural norms onto God, calling our ways of violence, force, retribution, etc, the ways of God, creating stories of God which reflect that human violence.

The good bits, the divine bits have already permeated our culture as lights of truth, "Love your neighbor as yourself". "Do not render and eye for an eye," and so forth. The bad bits, are what you see being promoted by those who are expressing that cultural norm on God, selecting the angry God of scripture as their preferred God of choice, ignoring the God of Love which contracts everything the other God of Human Culture expresses, in order to express their own fears and frustrations at the world, praying for this one to be destroyed and a new one given to them.

This is very different than seeing that peace in the world is found through an inner transformative process. It is the contrast between persuasion and force. Both are found in the Biblical tradition. It's our stories as humans in that struggle between the two, between peace through nonviolent transformation, and peace through imposition of force. What you see in all of history, is revealed within its own pages, like an image of that classic struggle between the forces of light and darkness.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I would agree with this. God's love is unconditionally given to everyone, like the rays of the sun shine freely on the whole planet. The only thing we have to do is walk outside into the sun to enjoy it, rather than hiding inside our caves.

It's not the sun holding back the rays from us, but us hiding ourselves away from them in ourselves. The only dependency or condition is our choosing to avail ourselves of this or not. The Love however is a constant, without interruption from the Source. God's love is therefore unconditional and absolute in its Nature.

That matches my experience of the Divine. It's always there. It's always absolute. But it's a matter of simply seeing it, or blocking ourselves from it. It's not God setting conditions. It's us doing that, for any long list of reasons we choose to do that. In all cases, it's self-inflicted.


I recently lost my mother to inevitabilities of old age. Now both my parents have gone. I spend my days now reflecting upon that Grace that was given to me through them as my parents.


I don't disagree that there are consequences for our actions. But to understand this natural law of "karma", or "reaping what you sow", should not be projected onto God "punishing us".

I find that view of a "retributive justice" to be inconsistent with the nature of Absolute Love. Vindictiveness is contrary to unconditional Love. It is human and based upon the ego. Rather, these things are just laws of the universe, Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. When we do not work within the "system", so to speak, things start failing and people get hurt.

In other words, it's not God sending punishment our way for violating a set of laws, but rather us reaping the results of not following them, like driving our car outside the lines and going into the ditch and hitting a tree. God did not punish us with the tree. God encourages us to drive responsibility.

But even when we do roll the car and bust a few bones, or worse, there is no judgment against us, no rejection of us, no withdrawal of that Love. That is utterly impossible. You did not fail God. You failed yourself. And God's love calls you back.


It's not a matter of them being allowed or disallowed by God because we either measured up and failed to measure up to a set of externalized laws handed down by an externalized law-giver. Those "laws" are inherent in the fabric of the universe itself.

Heaven and hell, I have found, exist in the present moment, at all times. The timeless, Eternal, is not after this life, but is in this life and all lifetimes that every have been and ever will be. As we live inside the worlds created by our darkened imaginations, that separates us from the ever-present, absolute, and unconditional Divine Love in every moment. We are in hell right now, when we live our of touch with that.

Conversely, when we surrender and open ourselves to that right now, in every moment, we are now free from that prison we created for ourselves through living inside of our worlds of fear. From inside that world, God appears fearful. But being liberated from that world, God appears as God is, pure, and unconditional Love. We see through a different set of eyes, one conditioned by the mind of fear, guilt, shame, anger, pride, etc, or one set free by Grace, Love, Courage, Forgiveness, and Divine Light, or revelation. All in the present moment, both heaven, or hell.

My dad said to me as a child, "What we don't resolve in this world, we have to in the next". It's not that God will make all your stuff you don't let go of stop plaguing you. That's up to you. God will not do it for you, in this life, or the next.
Thank you so much for sharing your perspectives.

I am truly sorry over the loss of your parents, but glad you were blessed with such a loving mom and dad.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
When is god going to repent for all the terrible crimes attributed to it in the Bible?
How do you know whether you are understanding things correctly? If God is eternal outside of time and sees and knows everything, even the motives within people's thoughts, how can your knowledge of any given situation compare to His? What if God had valid, just reasons for the things which you are calling crimes that you have no way of comprehending?
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
How do you know whether you are understanding things correctly? If God is eternal outside of time and sees and knows everything, even the motives within people's thoughts, how can your knowledge of any given situation compare to His? What if God had valid, just reasons for the things which you are calling crimes that you have no way of comprehending?

How do you know anything you believe to be true has any basis in fact? You only believe a god exists, you can't provide any factual evidence to prove it does.

If a the Biblical god exists and is as evil as the Bible states it as being humans should be using their knowledge to try to exterminate it.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
"Jesus loves you"

Is this just a trite cliche Christians say to others, something kids are taught in Sunday school or sing in a children's song? Or is it a profound reality with eternal impact that the Creator of heaven and earth loves you?

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. John 15:9

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. John 15:13

It depends. To a Christian and Christian-agreeing peers it has a profound meaning. In and of itself, I'd say no. It would need more context to understand the nature of its profoundness. For example, who is jesus? Why is he important? (not specific to verses but more in a deeper way) Go deeper.

Scripture is deep for the believer, but what about your own words?
Have a full conversations and jesus loves you may mean something more. Without context, it is what it is. Not much else.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Hell sure seems fun.

Hey when JESUS rose on the third day, you get a hint. Read the context.

We only go with whats there. I dont keep sabbath. Jesus preached in Hell.


Hell sound fun?

Its time to play or get lost.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I mean that is some bizarre stuff they teach. What kind of entity are you worshipping? At least jesus isn't some weird entity that hides, they evrn say the burning bush was an entity hiding using an angel to talk lol.

Hahahaha

Shalommi shalomm Jeshuah
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Hell sure seems fun.

Hey when JESUS rose on the third day, you get a hint. Read the context.

We only go with whats there. I dont keep sabbath. Jesus preached in Hell.


Hell sound fun?

Its time to play or get lost.

It is highly unlikely the resurrection of Jesus occurred, if it did why did he disappear instead of staying around to verify it?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Really? Then you have a problem, because religious and mystics, and gnostics, all encounter Jesus.
They also encounter the Buddha, and Krisha, Kali, Mother Mary, and so forth, depending on the religion of their culture they grew up with. The Christian sees Jesus. The Buddhist sees Buddha, etc.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
They also encounter the Buddha, and Krisha, Kali, Mother Mary, and so forth, depending on the religion of their culture they grew up with. The Christian sees Jesus. The Buddhist sees Buddha, etc.
I'm going by what I know. Your comparison is really bad, actually. If you would like more information as to why that comparison is bad, just ask.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Really? Then you have a problem, because religious and mystics, and gnostics, all encounter Jesus.
They don't, they just think they do, imo.

If that guy was still around instead of long dead, why didn't he help me out as a child when I was a Christian and sincerely believed everything in the Bible to be true? I had a problem which gave me nightmares and I couldn't share with anyone, especially my parents. I asked Jesus for help, but I never had any sign he was alive, let alone able to assist me. Gradually as I progressed through my teenage years the doubts came thick and fast until I lost my faith. I haven't missed it.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
They don't, they just think they do, imo.

If that guy was still around instead of long dead, why didn't he help me out as a child when I was a Christian and sincerely believed everything in the Bible to be true? I had a problem which gave me nightmares and I couldn't share with anyone, especially my parents. I asked Jesus for help, but I never had any sign he was alive, let alone able to assist me. Gradually as I progressed through my teenage years the doubts came thick and fast until I lost my faith. I haven't missed it.
That's fine. So you went to atheism. You believe that was logical to go to atheism, from that?
 
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