1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Jesus Lives!

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Power Stone, Jun 29, 2020.

  1. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    23,582
    Ratings:
    +10,911
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    No. Invalid analogy.
    Homosexuality is a common and normal variation, not a rebellion against God. It should be accepted as such.
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,038
    Ratings:
    +3,544
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Thank you for that.

    Unfortunately the logic of it is still opaque to me.

    In particular, since God is said to be omnipotent, why was any death necessary when omnipotence could have addressed any problem of consequences of evil deeds, and of drawing people to [him] directly, and without cruelty or bloodshed?
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,038
    Ratings:
    +3,544
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    No, it's pretty clear that Jesus knew from the start that the intention was that he should die (eg Mark 2:20), and it's unambiguous that he refused opportunities to escape because his purpose was to be killed.

    You may recall in Jesus Christ, Superstar, that Judas complained he was getting the blame for Jesus' death, when he was only doing exactly what Jesus wanted.
    If God is omnipotent then (as I said) EVERYTHING that happens only happens exactly and always as [he] perfectly foresaw and intended at the time [he] created the universe. The question of freewill doesn't arise at any point. (Not that it does in physics either, but that's not a secret.)
     
    #23 blü 2, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  4. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,555
    Ratings:
    +1,651
    Religion:
    Unitarian Universalism,Pagan,Zen
    He is a myth yes. There is no proof he existed except in the minds of the writers who wrote the bible. He is much like the Pagan Gods who were myths too.
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    9,686
    Ratings:
    +2,720
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Jesus Superstar was not an historical account.

    Sometimes you know beforehand

    Secret commando suicide mission to destroy Hitler's nuclear programme

    Besides, our Christian belief system is that He lives. So, as far as Christians are concerned, your point is quite mute.

    Then, apparently, you haven't studied the Bible
     
    #25 KenS, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  6. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    9,686
    Ratings:
    +2,720
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    No... the analogy is correct. If homosexuality is normal because it happens in nature then cannibalism is normal too.

    Ask a cannibal
     
  7. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Ratings:
    +366
    Religion:
    Rescued of Jesus the Christ
    Good afternoon. Are these sincere questions, or rhetorical? (usually if rhetorical, the person doesn't want an answer)

    Sometimes I notice your questions can involve key assumptions about free will. Are you using a premise that free will is illusory, or quite limited, or just non existent? Or a free will that is only nominal (just an appearance), such as due to complexity (clockwork Universe, but incalculable)? Assumptions like these affect reasoning on these questions you raised pretty drastically.

    I once thought (late teen years) that seeming free will was just an artifact of physical complexity, that the future is merely incalculable. Only later did I learn it's plausible in physics that there could be true randomness in the heart of nature, and that Bell test experiments make that look more and more likely. Of course, even merely a physical randomness alone would already render certain questions you raised moot, can you see?
     
  8. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,093
    Ratings:
    +2,518
    Religion:
    Judaism
    No can do. Last time I checked people don't chew their cud and have cloven hoofs. Of course, since you don't observe kashrut - בתאבון
    Good Appetite!
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  9. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    9,686
    Ratings:
    +2,720
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    I thought for sure I saw a man pure and then start chewing again. :D
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    26,595
    Ratings:
    +8,809
    Hm. Good point.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,038
    Ratings:
    +3,544
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    No, but it was quite a success as an entertainment, and the point Judas made which I referred to is completely supported by the gospel stories. To put that another way, what did Judas do that Jesus didn't want him to do?
    And in your view, what in the gospels is the equivalent of Hitler's nuclear program?
    Well, yes, that's another problem, isn't it ─ Jesus' redeeming death wasn't death at all. So once again, what was the point of it all?
    Then I'd be grateful if you'd refer me to the parts of the bible that directly address the question. And the question is a simple one ─ if God is omnipotent then [he] can't avoid responsibility for everything that happens. All the bucks stop at [his] desk. [He] planned it, set it up, and knocked it down, and there's nothing anyone can do about that.

    Or are you arguing that God is not omnipotent? ─ which would solve that particular problem.
     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,038
    Ratings:
    +3,544
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Yes, a point on which I should be clear. It's clear from the biochemistry that the human brain is an extremely complex thing that has evolved to work in particular ways, which we're still exploring, describing and endeavoring to explain. It makes many kinds of decisions, and for most the brain processes involved are understood in principle. We make decisions as the result of complex and interacting chains of cause+effect. In that sense there is no such thing as free will anywhere, since the sole alternative is randomness.

    But theology asserts free will, and as I understand it attributes it to 'the spirit'. While I've read numerous accounts of the processes by which brains make decisions, I've never seen an explanation of the processes by which 'spirit' makes decisions. Again, the basis for those processes appears to me to be necessarily between cause+effect or randomness, because there's no third choice.

    That's my view. But here I'm enquiring into the Christian view, and how it can relate to the idea of an omnipotent being in charge of the universe. What did that being intend to achieve by the death of Jesus? Why choose that method if you're omnipotent and thus can bring about any state of affairs you like, with a metaphorical snap of the fingers?
    Not quite. The explanations of physics, about which we appear to be in substantial agreement, are not the same as the explanations of theology, and it's to that that I direct my enquiry.
     
  13. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1,014
    Ratings:
    +291
    Sure it has a lot of cool messages but you can also interpret certain parts of it however you wish. I really do believe God wishes us to have our own thoughts and feelings regarding him.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    23,582
    Ratings:
    +10,911
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Cannibalism is rare, and it's a behavior, not an inborn drive or orientation.
    Cannibalism is learned. Cannibalism cannot be seen on a brain MRI.
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,038
    Ratings:
    +3,544
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Ah, you're referring to the Eucharist!

    (As a sidenote, that wasn't originally to do with flesh. Among the Greeks it had been a ceremony in which food, as cereal / grain (the goddess Ceres) and wine (the god Dionysos / Bacchus) were thankfully celebrated.)

    But as for nature, and human nature, we know from studies from anthropology, and from studies in small children, that we're born with evolved moral tendencies appropriate to our being gregarious primates. There is, of course, the mammalian instinct to nurture and protect the offspring, with us a major task since the human infant isn't anything like independent for the first five years of life.

    Then there's dislike for the person who harms; like of fairness and reciprocity; respect for authority; loyalty to the group; and a sense of self-worth / virtue through self-denial.

    Other genetic moral factors are empathy, likely due to mirror neurons, and conscience, the sense that some moral rules have universal application and are more than just personal views. (Of course, apart from the tendencies above, consciences are personal. We can't derive a list of universal standards from them.)

    The rest of our morality is learnt (and is part of informing our conscience) ─ by our upbringing, culture, education and experience. This covers things like social norms, meeting family, friends, strangers, other males, other females, the role of relatives, how to dress, how to behave when dining, the rules of excretion, the observance of ceremonies of birth or naming, coming of age, marriage, death and so on.

    We've observed cultural cannibalism, most famously among Polynesians. One New Guinea group of Melanesians long suffered from kuru, a disease passed when the relatives of the deceased ceremonially ate portions of brain tissue. But these aren't the world's norm. Rather like incest, it happens, but much more commonly it doesn't happen.

    Homosexuality on the other hand is a sexual orientation. It's not something you choose, as a rule, rather something that's built in. Some cultures are against it, some don't notice it; you've probably come across the observation that it scarcely existed till the latter 19th century, not because it wasn't there but because no one paid it much attention. And you're no doubt familiar with studies that show it occurs across a great spectrum of animals in the wild.

    I dare say you're read of the cruelty and folly of trying to 'cure' a sexual orientation too.

    (Incidentally, I thought we'd agreed on 'inclusion' as a virtue in one's outlook?)
     
    #35 blü 2, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  16. Eddi

    Eddi currently engaged in spiritual warfare

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,287
    Ratings:
    +837
    Religion:
    Christian - currently interested in Liberation Theology
    He is not a legend...

    But he is legendary!
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    9,686
    Ratings:
    +2,720
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    It could have been any of the disciples. He was the weakest link

    the world-wide consequences of man's evil imagination is worse that a nuclear bomb.

    he defeated death, hell and the grave.

    With your responses (if I can call it that since it is filled with unbelief, sarcasm, and skepticism ) convince me why I would share a pearl with you.
     
    #37 KenS, Jul 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  18. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    9,686
    Ratings:
    +2,720
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    as is the propensity to murder, peodophelia, lieing, adultery, and everything else...

    we are just born that way no choice in the matter ;)
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    9,686
    Ratings:
    +2,720
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    and who has done the testing?
     
  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    23,582
    Ratings:
    +10,911
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Which testing are you referring to?
     
Loading...