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Jesus, Judaism, and Christianity
- Thread starter Fool
- Start date
Originally? The first Christians were pretty much Jews with sectarian beliefs. Later (decades, centuries), some non-Jewish converts to Christianity began showing interest in Judaism, and so the Paul and later the Church Fathers worked hard to convince them that Judaism was wrong, Jews were evil, etc.
That's not what the Church Fathers did, I am sorry.
If you read the Letter to the Hebrews ( Hebrews 1), there has always been a welcoming attitude towards Jews.
Christianity is for both Jews and Gentiles. Back when Peter went to Rome, Christians started being persecuted also because theirs was a heresy of Judaism.
dybmh
Terminal Optimist
too many rules... that's my guess
I was thinking of Galatians with regards to Paul and the writings of John Chrysostom with regards to the Church Fathers (see here for an overview Adversus Judaeos - Wikipedia), although if you really want to get into the wider subject of Church Fathers and the Jews, you can start by checking out Epiphanius's Panarion for one as well as some of Origen's writings, such as Letter to Africanus, and on the other hand, you can also check out Jerome. Too bad most of the Church Fathers weren't as nice to the Jews as Jerome was.That's not what the Church Fathers did, I am sorry.
If you read the Letter to the Hebrews ( Hebrews 1), there has always been a welcoming attitude towards Jews.
It's not an invective against Jews, but against those early Christians who would keep Jewish festivities and traditions.
Roman and Greek Christians too were constantly reprimanded for keeping some pagan festivities and traditions.
Not to mention that John Chrysostom was the one who had the magnificent Temple of Artemis of Ephesus, razed to the ground.
That was anti-Paganism, I guess.
Selling a new religion is no different than selling any other product.
Not enough Jews were buying what they were selling. So they found a bigger market.
I don't know to which part of what I wrote in either of the posts you are referring to, but Galatians makes it clear that the Jews are wrong and are not worshipping god correctly. And gee, why would Chrysostom's words lead to antisemitism? Was he just a misunderstood saint? I'm afraid that I don't think so. We also have Justin Martyr's claim that the Jews edited out references to Jesus from the Book of Ezra. And then there's the long list of Church Fathers who mention the Bar Kochba Revolt. Some practically revel in what happened to the Jews after the war. Mostly basically copied from Eusibius from Church History, that's true, but they likely had another source as well. I'm sure we could go on and on on this.
As in ...
Welcome my friends, welcome. Oh, and please leave your ******' (mod edit) Judaism at the door or we'll kill your Christ-killing ***!
Thanks ...
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dybmh
Terminal Optimist
From the trailer to Quentin Tarantino's modern cinematic adaptation...
Christianity is about love.
Not about reason.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
At first they did. If you read Acts 15, you will see that there was a big hoo-ha over whether non-Jewish believers had to become circumcised Jews or not, and it was decided not. Peter and Paul both argued that gentile believers should not be required to convert. Later in history, due to the many gentile God-fearers that Paul brought into the church, the nature of the church changed from being more of a Jewish sect that still observed teh 613 laws, to a new gentile religion that opposed Judaism.
Good question. In Bible Christians means only a disciple of Jesus.
in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11:26
And in Biblical point of view, they should be also Jews, because:
If therefore the uncircumcised keep the ordinances of the law, won’t his uncircumcision be accounted as circumcision? Won’t the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfills the law, judge you, who with the letter and circumcision are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:26-29
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Romans 11:17-21
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
In your understanding, did the Jews who remained orthodox, ever become "opposed" to the orthodox Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah?
John
I'm honestly not clear what "orthodox Jews" means here. Can you offer some examples of "orthodox Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah?"
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes. There came a day when the Rabbis did some housekeeping, and kicked out of the synagogues a bunch of the different groups they considered heretical. Among these were the Nazarenes. This happened about 85 CE.
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
That was cute; neither bright nor responsive but cute.A guy named Saul of Tarsus.
(Truth be known, I'm a bit of a Hyam Maccoby fan, but that's for an entirely different thread.)
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
That was cute; neither bright nor responsive but cute.
(Truth be known, I'm a bit of a Hyam Maccoby fan, but that's for an entirely different thread.)
Hyam Maccoby, in a manner similar to Daniel Boyarin, implies that the Gospel account of Jesus may distort a more Jewish reality (concerning the person of Jesus) hidden beneath the allegedly false or exaggerated accounts codified in the Gospels.
What would seem like a problem with that concept so far as the statements earlier in this thread (that the first Christians were Jews) is that when this Jewish Jesus died on the cross, or died at all, his claim to messianic status would seemingly die with him since as Jews are wont to point out, Messiah can't die before fulfilling the messianic promises. The cadre of Jewish Christians would have all disbanded after Jesus death such that they couldn't be sectarians clinging to the Jewish Jesus after the late-thirties of the current era.
Nevertheless, if I recall correctly, it was Rabbi Telushkin who pointed out that technically speaking, that is, according to Jewish thought and scripture, Messiah could in fact be a resurrected Jew from the past.
If that be the case, I guess it's possible that there could have been Jewish Christians after the death of Jesus who rather than subscribing to the Gospel account of his resurrection from the dead, could have believed not that he was God, or already literally resurrected from the dead, but that he would be the Jewish Messiah when he was eventually raised from the dead.
Point being that there would seem to be difficulties with the statement that the first Christians were Jews since Christian doctrine is diametrically opposed to Jewish monotheism since according to the tenets of Jewish monotheism, God can't incarnate. A Christian Jew (in a religious sense) is thus an oxymoron.
John
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