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Jesus is the real Israel

74x12

Well-Known Member
According to Strong's Hebrew dictionary the name Israel means “He will rule as God” and in Genesis 32:28 the angel says that Jacob was named this because “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.” This is clearly a messianic prophecy.

edit: Yes He will rule as God is a disputed interpretation. There are other disputed interpretations. Like contender with God. Others having to do with the righteousness of God etc. That's not the main point of this thread. The point is that Jesus is Israel. Do you agree or disagree.
 
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Duke_Leto

Active Member
Wouldn't that mean it either applies to the actual people of Israel, or Israel/Jacob himself? If Jesus was connected in any way to that, it would be that he's trying to steal the title!
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
According to Strong's Hebrew dictionary the name Israel means “He will rule as God” and in Genesis 32:28 the angel says that Jacob was named this because “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.” This is clearly a messianic prophecy.
I’m with the Duke on this one, the Bible applies the title to Jacob.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
No, it means "he who contends with God" or "God contends". No idea where you got that mess from and have never heard it before.

Israel (name) - Wikipedia
the name is disputed but contends? I don't think so. The name is comprised of basically two elements. Isra and El. So isra is similar to sar(Prince) and even Sarah(princess). If Wikipedia says it means God contends or he who contends with God, I suggest you get a second opinion.

I won't lie. There are alternatives meanings but contends with God is not even close. The names meaning is disputed.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
the name is disputed but contends? I don't think so. The name is comprised of basically two elements. Isra and El. So isra is similar to sar(Prince) and even Sarah(princess). If Wikipedia says it means God contends or he who contends with God, I suggest you get a second opinion.

I won't lie. There are alternatives meanings but contends with God is not even close. The names meaning is disputed.
It may be desputed to a little extent but not to the extent where you can get away with the mangling of the OP. Wikipedia is correct.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
the name is disputed but contends? I don't think so. The name is comprised of basically two elements. Isra and El. So isra is similar to sar(Prince) and even Sarah(princess). If Wikipedia says it means God contends or he who contends with God, I suggest you get a second opinion.

I won't lie. There are alternatives meanings but contends with God is not even close. The names meaning is disputed.
You are mistaken.
israel | Origin and meaning of the name israel by Online Etymology Dictionary

Old English Israel, "the Jewish people, the Hebrew nation," from Latin Israel, from Greek, from Hebrew yisra'el "he that striveth with God" (Genesis xxxii.28), symbolic proper name conferred on Jacob and extended to his descendants, from sara "he fought, contended" + El "God." As the name of an independent Jewish state in the Middle East, it is attested from 1948.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
You are mistaken.
israel | Origin and meaning of the name israel by Online Etymology Dictionary

Old English Israel, "the Jewish people, the Hebrew nation," from Latin Israel, from Greek, from Hebrew yisra'el "he that striveth with God" (Genesis xxxii.28), symbolic proper name conferred on Jacob and extended to his descendants, from sara "he fought, contended" + El "God." As the name of an independent Jewish state in the Middle East, it is attested from 1948.
Alright apparently it is considered a possible meaning, but certainly not the only one.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
According to Strong's Hebrew dictionary the name Israel means “He will rule as God”

It's true that the verb isr comes from the same root s-r-r as do sar and Sarah, as you point out later on. But there is no word "as (k)" in between.

Isr
can mean "he will rule": the i turns the word into first person, masculine, imperfective - "he will", the s-r comes from the root to mean rule and the E-l means G-d. But when read like that, the intent is to say, "G-d will rule".

In the same manner we have Ishma'el: Ishma' and E-l. The i again turns the word to first person, masculine, imperfective - he will, the shma' means "hear" and the E-l again means "G-d", meaning: "G-d will hear". It doesn't mean "he will listen as G-d".

and in Genesis 32:28 the angel says that Jacob was named this because “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.” This is clearly a messianic prophecy.

This is not a great translation.

כי שרית עם אלהים ועם אנשים ותוכל

Because / you have ruled (saritha) / with / divine [beings] / and with / men / and you were able (ie. prevailed).

It doesn't say that Jacob did something as a prince. The word is used as a verb: you have ruled. The two words are one in Hebrew: someone with power or rulership is a prince. The last word "and you were able" implies that there was a struggle to get to the position of "you have ruled" which is why some translators translate is "you have striven", a power struggle to see who would come out on top. It's parallel can be found in Hosea 12:4-5,

"In the womb, he supplanted (a play on words as the root comes from the word heel calling to mind Gen. 25:26) his brother and in his [age of] strength he ruled a divine [being]. And he ruled (vayasar) to an angel and he was able".
The passage in Hosea and the passage in Genesis are referring to the same event. The "man" that Jacob fought with was an angel. The word "man" is also used to refer to angels, such as in Joshua 5:13 Judges 13:6 and Daniel 9:21.

What should be immediately noticeable is that it's not a Messianic prophecy as the whole thing is written in past tense. A description of things Jacob has done, not a description of things the Messiah would do.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
It's true that the verb isr comes from the same root s-r-r as do sar and Sarah, as you point out later on. But there is no word "as (k)" in between.

Isr can mean "he will rule": the i turns the word into first person, masculine, imperfective - "he will", the s-r comes from the root to mean rule and the E-l means G-d. But when read like that, the intent is to say, "G-d will rule".

In the same manner we have Ishma'el: Ishma' and E-l. The i again turns the word to first person, masculine, imperfective - he will, the shma' means "hear" and the E-l again means "G-d", meaning: "G-d will hear". It doesn't mean "he will listen as G-d".

and in Genesis 32:28 the angel says that Jacob was named this because “for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.” This is clearly a messianic prophecy.
This is not a great translation.

כי שרית עם אלהים ועם אנשים ותוכל

Because / you have ruled (saritha) / with / divine [beings] / and with / men / and you were able (ie. prevailed).

It doesn't say that Jacob did something as a prince. The word is used as a verb: you have ruled. The two words are one in Hebrew: someone with power or rulership is a prince. The last word "and you were able" implies that there was a struggle to get to the position of "you have ruled" which is why some translators translate is "you have striven", a power struggle to see who would come out on top. It's parallel can be found in Hosea 12:4-5,

"In the womb, he supplanted (a play on words as the root comes from the word heel calling to mind Gen. 25:26) his brother and in his [age of] strength he ruled a divine [being]. And he ruled (vayasar) to an angel and he was able".
The passage in Hosea and the passage in Genesis are referring to the same event. The "man" that Jacob fought with was an angel. The word "man" is also used to refer to angels, such as in Joshua 5:13 Judges 13:6 and Daniel 9:21.
Thank you for the break down on the Hebrew.
What should be immediately noticeable is that it's not a Messianic prophecy as the whole thing is written in past tense. A description of things Jacob has done, not a description of things the Messiah would do.
Just because it's past tense doesn't mean it's not prophetic. For example Jacob took hold of Esau's heel during birth. This was interpreted as being an allegory of their future relationship. Genesis throughout is allegorical.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Just because it's past tense doesn't mean it's not prophetic. For example Jacob took hold of Esau's heel during birth. This was interpreted as being an allegory of their future relationship. Genesis throughout is allegorical.
Even if that were true, you're talking about an action ascribed to Jacob [and Esau], that alluded to the relationship between...those same people.

Jacob might be seen as an archetype for the nation of Israel, as the nation of Israel bears both of his names as their own. So I can see how an event that happens in the individual Jacob's life might be an allusion to the nation Jacob. But I don't see how you're going to create an allusion from an event in Jacob's life, to one specific descendant of his who bears no greater or lesser claim to either of the names than any other person belonging to the Children of Israel and the House of Jacob.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Even if that were true, you're talking about an action ascribed to Jacob [and Esau], that alluded to the relationship between...those same people.

Jacob might be seen as an archetype for the nation of Israel, as the nation of Israel bears both of his names as their own. So I can see how an event that happens in the individual Jacob's life might be an allusion to the nation Jacob. But I don't see how you're going to create an allusion from an event in Jacob's life, to one specific descendant of his who bears no greater or lesser claim to either of the names than any other person belonging to the Children of Israel and the House of Jacob.
Thank you for the response. You can see how an event in Jacob's life might be an allusion to the nation Jacob/Israel. Agreed.
Two questions:
Do you believe that the Messiah will restore Israel?
Do you believe in the resurrection of the dead?
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
No, G-d will restore Israel. Isa. 49:7
Well said. Yes God will restore Israel. But how does God restore Israel? Isn't there an Anointed One? He's called David or the Son of David. Tell me about the "sure mercies of David". Is not this eternal life? The resurrection? It says "Hear, and your soul shall live;"

Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto Me;
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
Even the sure mercies of David.

You know when a baby is born the head normally comes first? It's called crowning when the babies head begins to appear. (So we receive a crown of life.)

In Isaiah 26:19 the "dead bodies" is singular tense. So "my dead body".

Isaiah 26:19
19 `Thy dead live -- My dead body they rise. Awake and sing, ye dwellers in the dust, For the dew of herbs [is] thy dew, And the land of Rephaim thou causest to fall.

Who is first resurrected and born into eternal life? Who is the head of the body?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Well said. Yes God will restore Israel. But how does God restore Israel? Isn't there an Anointed One? He's called David or the Son of David.

The messiah is the king. Judaism favors a theocratic monarchy and that will be ruled by the anointed king.

Jer. 30 repeats a number of times: G-d will restore Israel. The messiah is one aspect of the era in which he'll reign. I don't see any verses that relate to the messiah as anything but the ruler.

Tell me about the "sure mercies of David".

It's a reference to the promise G-d made to David that the kingship would always belong to his family. The verse is comparing the eternality of the covenant G-d will make with us, to the eternality of the kingship that He promised David would remain in his family.

Is not this eternal life?
Is not what eternal life?

The resurrection?
Is what? There needs to be more words in this sentence.

It says "Hear, and your soul shall live;"

Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto Me;
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
Even the sure mercies of David.
Yes. It does say that. I'm not sure what you're connecting this to, though.

You know when a baby is born the head normally comes first? It's called crowning when the babies head begins to appear. (So we receive a crown of life.)
It's called crowning in English, yes. What are you trying to connect this too?

In Isaiah 26:19 the "dead bodies" is singular tense. So "my dead body".

Isaiah 26:19
19 `Thy dead live -- My dead body they rise. Awake and sing, ye dwellers in the dust, For the dew of herbs [is] thy dew, And the land of Rephaim thou causest to fall.
You're going so fast! Let's slow down and see what it says:

יחיו מתיך
נבלתי יקומון

they shall live / your dead (ie. your dead shall live)
my corpse / they shall arise (ie. my corpse(s) shall rise )

So I right away notice that the word "my corpse" is in singular as you said. But I also notice that the following verb "they shall arise" is in plural. The verb seems to be indicating that the noun is meant to be understood in plural, perhaps as a collective noun. Another possibility is that the prophet is talking about his own dead body among the rest of the nations dead as if to say:

"your dead shall live - and my corpse - they shall [all] arise [together]"

It almost seems as though your translation is reading it as saying "they will raise up my dead body", but that's weird, because "they will raise" would be יקימו or יקימון. The word here is יקומון which means "they will arise" (talking about the dead bodies themselves, not something others would do to them)

Also that capital "My" is misleading because translations generally only use capitals for pronouns when it's talking about G-d. But in this entire chapter, the prophet refers to G-d in the second person, not first person. Whenever he uses first person, he's talking about himself. So it's kind of odd that they would do that, don't you think?

Who is first resurrected and born into eternal life?

I can't recall. It's either all the righteous people, or all the people buried in the land of Israel. Or maybe it's the righteous who are buried in the land of Israel. I know it's one of those, but I'd have to look it up to know for sure.

Who is the head of the body?
Do you mean to say "what" is the head of the body? "Who" is not a word that is used in relation to body parts. We say, "what" or maybe "which".
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
The messiah is the king. Judaism favors a theocratic monarchy and that will be ruled by the anointed king.

Jer. 30 repeats a number of times: G-d will restore Israel. The messiah is one aspect of the era in which he'll reign. I don't see any verses that relate to the messiah as anything but the ruler.
He is far more than just a ruler to me. In Psalms 89:20-28 we see that the Messiah is really called David. The old David is a forerunner of the Messiah. The Messiah the David to come is made by God the "firstborn" higher than the kings of the earth. This is a key; because in Ex. 4:22-23 we can see that Israel is the firstborn. The Messiah the David that is coming therefore is going to be Israel. (I will explain this.)
It's a reference to the promise G-d made to David that the kingship would always belong to his family. The verse is comparing the eternality of the covenant G-d will make with us, to the eternality of the kingship that He promised David would remain in his family.
It is about kingship of the Messiah who will reign forever. The "everlasting covenant" is the sure mercies of David that will be extended for everyone who is resurrected into endless life.
Is not what eternal life?
This is not the old David. This is the Messiah. He will reign forever. The sure of mercies of David are endless life as we see it says "your soul shall live" if you hear. So, God promises the sure mercies of David to anyone who will “hear”. The everlasting Covenant is the sure mercies of David. This will be through the resurrection. That's the only way to get the sure mercies of David.

Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto Me;
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
Even the sure mercies of David.

Yes. It does say that. I'm not sure what you're connecting this to, though.
It is the sure mercies of David. A promise of endless life if we're joined with David that is. The name David means beloved and is another name of the Messiah.
It's called crowning in English, yes. What are you trying to connect this too?
The crown of life. (James 1:12) The resurrection will be a rebirth into eternal life. English is a very strange language. It is full of meaning and symbolism.

You're going so fast! Let's slow down and see what it says:

יחיו מתיך
נבלתי יקומון

they shall live / your dead (ie. your dead shall live)
my corpse / they shall arise (ie. my corpse(s) shall rise )

So I right away notice that the word "my corpse" is in singular as you said. But I also notice that the following verb "they shall arise" is in plural. The verb seems to be indicating that the noun is meant to be understood in plural, perhaps as a collective noun. Another possibility is that the prophet is talking about his own dead body among the rest of the nations dead as if to say:

"your dead shall live - and my corpse - they shall [all] arise [together]"

It almost seems as though your translation is reading it as saying "they will raise up my dead body", but that's weird, because "they will raise" would be יקימו or יקימון. The word here is יקומון which means "they will arise" (talking about the dead bodies themselves, not something others would do to them)

Also that capital "My" is misleading because translations generally only use capitals for pronouns when it's talking about G-d. But in this entire chapter, the prophet refers to G-d in the second person, not first person. Whenever he uses first person, he's talking about himself. So it's kind of odd that they would do that, don't you think?
No worries about that. The translator seems to be breaking it down into multiple sentences. The "My" is beginning a new sentence.

I appreciate your Hebrew knowledge.
"They will arise" is actually better for my point. You're saying it's just grammar but I believe as Jesus did that every jot and tittle is important when dealing with scriptures. (Matthew 5:18) It's one body yet a plurality of people will arise. There is a reason for that.

I can't recall. It's either all the righteous people, or all the people buried in the land of Israel. Or maybe it's the righteous who are buried in the land of Israel. I know it's one of those, but I'd have to look it up to know for sure.
It's the Messiah who is first resurrected. The Messiah is the head of the body. This was foreshadowed in Ex. 4:22-23. The Pharaoh is symbolic of death or satan and he must let the firstborn go. Just as God plagued Pharaoh and Egypt; He plagues death according to Hosea 13:14. He also makes it clear in Hosea 13:14 that He will “redeem” them(those being resurrected) from death. This is interesting because it is as Jesus taught that there must be a ransom to overcome death and bring in the resurrection. This is as Jesus taught the power of the grave would be overcome through sacrifice. Repentance being hid from God's eyes is also significant because there must be a covering to hide it from God's sight so that He will not repent of His decision. Only a sacrifice could bring this.

Shall I ransom them from the power of the nether-world?
Shall I redeem them from death?
Ho, thy plagues, O death!
Ho, thy destruction, O netherworld!
Repentance be hid from Mine eyes!

Do you mean to say "what" is the head of the body? "Who" is not a word that is used in relation to body parts. We say, "what" or maybe "which".
I mean who because this body is more than one person. It's Israel reborn from the dead. There is earthly Israel and eternal Israel. The eternal Israel is resurrected and so is the "real" or "true" Israel. This Israel will last forever and the Messiah is the firstborn from the dead. (Psalm 89)
So, ultimately when the angel told Jacob he was as a prince with God and men and had prevailed; this is about the Messiah who is the One who has power with God and men. (Matthew 28:18)
 
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