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JESUS IS THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL !!!

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It is not what he is saying. He is saying that one of the 144,000 might not "stand strong for Jehovah". like some kings of Israel didn't.

I'll count it in his favor he didn't count himself or the JW heirarchy as the 144,000. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus doesn't grab a king or two from the OT to be of the 144,000, but none of the kings he said condemned and killed the prophets. None of the 144,000 will be Judas's.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'll count it in his favor he didn't count himself or the JW heirarchy as the 144,000. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus doesn't grab a king or two from the OT to be of the 144,000, but none of the kings he said condemned and killed the prophets. None of the 144,000 will be Judas's.
I agree with you that some of the 144,000, or all of them, are from the OT like you say from the OT. They actually DO believe that some of the JW hierarchy are of the 144,000. For a brother to be of the governing body he has to confess to be one of the 144,000, but it has been awhile since I was learning the Watchtower so it might be different now.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A person cannot truthfully admit to being one of the 144,000 until he is because a person who is in Heaven singing a new song of Moses has endured to his or her end.
If a member of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is of the 144,000 it means that he is dead.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Those words are to the little flock. Only 144,000 will sit on thrones beside Jesus separating the sheep from the goats--then helping judge at judgement--even over fallen angels. Some kings stood strong for Jehovah in the ot, some did not.
The new earth= Gods kingdom rule in full control forever, no mortal kings. No more satan influences. Harmony amongst all of creation'-Earth will be turned into paradise( Eden)

Psalm 37:9-11,---verse 29- The righteous themselves will possess the EARTH and reside forever upon it. Not in heaven as some teach.
If that's what you want to have faith in. I don't see Revelations as a spiritual book of prophesy. It's a vision, nothing more. We aren't even sure WHO wrote it. It doesn't follow the writing style or teachings of John, the disciple of Jesus. It wasn't part of the Canon used by the early Christians (Johannines, Pauline, Marconites, etc.). It's effectiveness of fear was adopted by the catholic ideology in their quest to control the thoughts of men. 144,000 sounded much more believable in the time of Domitian that were persecuting new Jews to Christianity, but since then the number has increased a thousand fold.

I see the Apocyphon of John in more spiritual aligning to the Gospel than an Apocalypse of John. The orthodox accept it as prophesy, when even Jesus said that the head of prophesy was removed with John (the Baptist. If men remained in seers and prophetics, Paul would have surely done so, which he didn't.

Everybody throughout history has their own views of when raptured events will occur or have already occurred. Revelations is nothing more than a book of confusion to argue over, meant for those of a perilous time, with no redeeming knowledge of the kingdom of God.

Just my researched view.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
That's pretty good. I agree the 144,000 are probably alot of the OT people. the best of the best of the best of all time. It could be like you say, could be a little different, but that's the best I've heard from any JW.


I don't think any who died prior to Jesus will enter heaven. The apostles were the first selected. Many back then. Few remain on earth at present.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
The professed members of the 144,000 on the Earth now are working to separate peoples. is that not true?
But, here you say they, "sit on thrones". If the living members of the 144,000 are really sitting on thrones it proves they have been given crowns. Revelation 6:2


The living members are not on thrones, only the ones in heaven.
Matt 7:21-23--Not all saying Lord Lord will enter the kingdom.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
If that's what you want to have faith in. I don't see Revelations as a spiritual book of prophesy. It's a vision, nothing more. We aren't even sure WHO wrote it. It doesn't follow the writing style or teachings of John, the disciple of Jesus. It wasn't part of the Canon used by the early Christians (Johannines, Pauline, Marconites, etc.). It's effectiveness of fear was adopted by the catholic ideology in their quest to control the thoughts of men. 144,000 sounded much more believable in the time of Domitian that were persecuting new Jews to Christianity, but since then the number has increased a thousand fold.

I see the Apocyphon of John in more spiritual aligning to the Gospel than an Apocalypse of John. The orthodox accept it as prophesy, when even Jesus said that the head of prophesy was removed with John (the Baptist. If men remained in seers and prophetics, Paul would have surely done so, which he didn't.

Everybody throughout history has their own views of when raptured events will occur or have already occurred. Revelations is nothing more than a book of confusion to argue over, meant for those of a perilous time, with no redeeming knowledge of the kingdom of God.

Just my researched view.



Jesus had 0 to do with the religion that came out of Rome.
I have watched Rev 13 pass before the worlds eyes for years now.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Jesus had 0 to do with the religion that came out of Rome.
I have watched Rev 13 pass before the worlds eyes for years now.

If I saw any reflection of Revelations 13, it would be Constantine. Using God as a force of destruction when he painted crosses on his shields to confuse the enemy, with the great power of Rome and the Roman Empire, that created orthodoxy, then killed all those Gnostics that refused to follow the teaching of the flesh.

Revelations 13:
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
If I saw any reflection of Revelations 13, it would be Constantine. Using God as a force of destruction when he painted crosses on his shields to confuse the enemy, with the great power of Rome and the Roman Empire, that created orthodoxy, then killed all those Gnostics that refused to follow the teaching of the flesh.

Revelations 13:
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


You seem to have missed---Makes fire( destruction) come down out of the heavens= bombs-missiles--You are in the wrong century.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
You seem to have missed---Makes fire( destruction) come down out of the heavens= bombs-missiles--You are in the wrong century.
Christ taught Spirit. I don't see Spirit in physical terms as you are using. Heaven doesn't make bombs nor do missiles travel in them.

Seek first the kingdom of God. Spirit. Your fears are physical. The same "fire" you fear is the same "fire" of baptism.

Wrong century? Right frame of mind, though. Let those who protect the flesh, die in the flesh.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Christ taught Spirit. I don't see Spirit in physical terms as you are using. Heaven doesn't make bombs nor do missiles travel in them.

Seek first the kingdom of God. Spirit. Your fears are physical. The same "fire" you fear is the same "fire" of baptism.

Wrong century? Right frame of mind, though. Let those who protect the flesh, die in the flesh.



Heavens carry 3 different meanings--Our atmosphere( Elijah)
outer space
Our atmosphere is the reference at Rev 13. Rev 13 occurs on earth.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I wonder how Christians get Jesus out of Jewish texts. The Jews don't even recognize Jesus, so how in the world can the Old Testament have Jesus in it?


Not all Jews see it that way, There are Jews who do believe Jesus is confirmed in the old testament scriptures.

Such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Thomas, James, Paul, Peter, and all those who followed Jesus. So there are Jews who do believe Jesus is confirmed in the old testament scriptures
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.

There are ways to disprove Jesus as being Michael the Archangel.

In the book of Daniel 12:1, Notice Michael the great prince,. Notice the letter ( p ) being lower case ( p )

Notice in Isaiah 9:6 here we find Jesus being spoken of as the Prince of Peace.

Notice the letter ( P ) being a higher case
( P ) signifying a person of much higher degree than the lower case ( p )

Therefore if Michael the Archangel were to be Jesus the letter ( p ) would be higher case ( P ) and not a lower case ( p ).
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Jesus is not Michael the Archangel.

There are ways to disprove Jesus as being Michael the Archangel.

In the book of Daniel 12:1, Notice Michael the great prince,. Notice the letter ( p ) being lower case ( p )

Notice in Isaiah 9:6 here we find Jesus being spoken of as the Prince of Peace.

Notice the letter ( P ) being a higher case
( P ) signifying a person of much higher degree than the lower case ( p )

Therefore if Michael the Archangel were to be Jesus the letter ( p ) would be higher case ( P ) and not a lower case ( p ).

Gnosis teaches that angels (both of the Father and of the Demiurge are created by each). Angels and demons are respective of their creator. They are spiritual extensions of each. Jesus, as well as the Holy Spirit, are begotten of the Father. A part of him. Angels aren't.

A demon can appear as an angel, and without spiritual knowledge, they can fool man. The Demiurge (Devil, Satan, etc.) wants man to see him as God. The reason he wanted Jesus to bend his knee towards him. Jesus instead gave us the Spirit, to expose him for what he is. The false God.

In gnosis, Archons are just the Archangels of the Demiurge.

Jesus is far above the angels and Archangels. If we are to judge angels, and the Son can judge us, it's hard to understand how Jesus could be compared to an angel.

Without spiritual gnosis, understanding becomes skewed, especially where the (physical) OT is involved.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
In the book of Daniel 12:1, Notice Michael the great prince,. Notice the letter ( p ) being lower case ( p )

Notice in Isaiah 9:6 here we find Jesus being spoken of as the Prince of Peace.

Notice the letter ( P ) being a higher case
( P ) signifying a person of much higher degree than the lower case ( p )

Therefore if Michael the Archangel were to be Jesus the letter ( p ) would be higher case ( P ) and not a lower case ( p ).

Neither Isaiah nor Daniel was written in English. I assume that you know that. I also assume that you realize both verses that you presented were written in Hebrew.

You seem unaware, however, that there are no lower case or upper case (capital) letters in Hebrew.
In other words, this is the word for prince as it appears in Isaiah -שר . This is the word for prince as it appears in Daniel - שר. No difference.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It doesn't matter to me. I follow the Gospel. not the Hebrew Scriptures. If the Jewish ideology misled the Jews to see Christ. it can also mislead the Christian seeker if they use it to define spiritual truth.

What Isaiah (a great prophet) wrote, was completed with Christs words "It is finished".

I have great respect for the Jewish people. Just not their ideology, as they were misled, they were warned, and still follow Abrahamic paths.

No offence, just a perception.
The poster was using the 'P's as proof.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
The poster was using the 'P's as proof.
I realized that after the fact. lol......I erased the post when I realized RabbiO wasn't quoting me. My mistake. Almost went a whole year without making one. Doh!

Move along. These aren't the droids you're looking for.:D
 
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