Jesus is not God

[Jim]

I don't care about what your theology or commentary says. It doesn't matter. What matters is what the text says. Why did they want to stone him? They gave a reason as plain as day. What does the text say?

I think I have the same interest as you in the narrative. I don’t see that as a reason for excluding the possibility that some people in the story are being dishonest with themselves or others, about their reasons for what they’re doing.

 

[sooda]

You are free to believe whatever you choose.

The truth may be a very good thing for all faiths.

 

[Ellen Brown]

@Ellen Brown I have some interest in this topic, but I’m not sure that you would have any interest in what I think about it. Have there been any benefits for you, from people’s comments in this thread?

The idea of the Trinity did not make sense to me the first time I read about it, about 50 years ago. The dogma was the trinity and eventually, I just stopped fighting the idea. There is no Trinity in Islam. There is only one God. Most people are content to just follow their pastor because they think he will take the blame for doctrinal errors. In my opinion that's lazy. In the NT they are admonished to be like the Bereans, studying the scriptures daily. I'm alone, no reason to trust anyone but God.

 

[Ellen Brown]

You have the freedom to to believe whatever you choose. But will that freedom save you ?

I trust God.

 

[Ellen Brown]

You have the freedom to to believe whatever you choose. But will that freedom save you ?

Considering my history, there is not reason to trust men.I trust God.

 

[Jim]

The idea of the Trinity did not make sense to me the first time I read about it, about 50 years ago. The dogma was the trinity and eventually, I just stopped fighting the idea. There is no Trinity in Islam. There is only one God. Most people are content to just follow their pastor because they think he will take the blame for doctrinal errors. In my opinion that's lazy. In the NT they are admonished to be like the Bereans, studying the scriptures daily. I'm alone, no reason to trust anyone but God.

Do you see any possible benefits to you or to anyone else, from what you’re doing in this thread? I see some possible benefits, but I’m wondering what you think about it.

 

[whirlingmerc]

In the story I heard:
1) "God" created the "universe of oceans and in him all things hold together"
2) "Jesus" was a child born to a virgin called Maria (God created Jesus so to speak)
So I agree to disagree on this one.

Time for a song "A King in a Cattle Trough"
God could become a baby if we so desired... he can do anything...

Maybe like the old man Simeon you hold the baby as see things as Simeon did
seeing the Salvation of God The song "now that I've held him in my arms"

 

[Ellen Brown]

Do you see any possible benefits to you or to anyone else, from what you’re doing in this thread? I see some possible benefits, but I’m wondering what you think about it.

It is just what I think. Others have the freedom to think for themselves. It is sad that there are those who wish to dictate what people think.

 

[Jim]

It is just what I think. Others have the freedom to think for themselves. It is sad that there are those who wish to dictate what people think.

A possible benefit that I see from this is that there might be other people who feel the way you do, who might get some encouragement from this.

I think that sometimes when the prophets talk about what God will do some day, they’re actually talking about what Jesus will do. Also, the only personal relationship with God that anyone can have is the same as a personal relationship with Jesus. There’s no difference between a personal relationship with Jesus, and a personal relationship with His Father. People in that relationship might think of it as one or the other, or both, but however they think of it, it’s the same personal relationship.

 

[shmogie]

Considering my history, there is not reason to trust men.I trust God.

As it should be, if you do so in the right spirit, attitude and knowledge.

 

[shmogie]

The truth may be a very good thing for all faiths.

There is only one truth.

 

[Jim]

@Ellen Brown I think that all people who see the divine light in Jesus have the same possibilities in a relationship with God, no matter if they think of it as a relationship with God, or with Jesus, or with three “distinct” “persons,” as long as Jesus is in the picture somewhere.

 

[sooda]

There is only one truth.

That's true....

 

[Kk4mds]

The idea of the Trinity did not make sense to me the first time I read about it, about 50 years ago. The dogma was the trinity and eventually, I just stopped fighting the idea. There is no Trinity in Islam. There is only one God. Most people are content to just follow their pastor because they think he will take the blame for doctrinal errors. In my opinion that's lazy. In the NT they are admonished to be like the Bereans, studying the scriptures daily. I'm alone, no reason to trust anyone but God.

The trinity is also anathema to Judaism.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The trinity is also anathema to Judaism.

In my experience, with the 10 Commandments, it is clear there is ONE G_d. Islam only carried that on.

I think that the same deceiver that spoke to G_d about Job, and spoke to Mary to lead her wrong is the same one that deceives the Christians. I've spoken of this before. Jesus did not come to start Christianity but to counsel the leaders of the Jews. A few angry men murdered him. It was not the Romans, and it was not all the Jews.

 

[Jim]

Jesus did not come to start Christianity but to counsel the leaders of the Jews.

It might depend on what Jesus you’re talking about. If it’s the one in the gospel stories, he preaches in synagogues, and to crowds of people. None of His twelve, the ones that He counsels the most, are leaders. The only leaders He talks to are the ones who come to Him, or who summon or kidnap Him. Also, the money changers, if you call them leaders.

He says His own mission is only to the lost sheep of Israel, but He wants His followers to go out to all the nations, not only Israel, to spread His gospel, which He calls the “gospel of the Kingdom.” He uses a variety of analogies to describe that Kingdom, and says that we can enter it by following Him. I see Him telling His followers to take that message to all the nations.

 

[sooda]

It might depend on what Jesus you’re talking about. If’s the one in the gospel stories, he preaches in synagogues, and to crowds of people. None of His twelve, the ones that He counsels the most, are leaders. The only leaders He talks to are the ones who come to Him, or who summon or kidnap Him. Also, the money changers, if you call them leaders.

He says His own mission is only to the lost sheep of Israel, but He wants His followers to go out to all the nations, not only Israel, to spread His gospel, which He calls the “gospel of the Kingdom.” He uses a variety of analogies to describe that Kingdom, and says that we can enter it by following Him. I see Him telling His followers to take that message to all the nations.

He came for the lost sheep of ISRAEL... Judea hated Israel and Jesus.

 

[stvdv]

Hypothetical: Bible is true + God=Omniscient + God=Omnipotent + God=Omnipresent

If God were the Ocean, then Jesus is a drop

There is a difference between "quantity" on the one side and "quality" on the other side.
Both are water, so quality is the same (Jesus=God). Quantity is not (God<>Jesus).

I could not say "God is Jesus"

Easier to see when put in this way:
Wrong to say "God = Jesus", because you limit God to ONLY Jesus (even is called Blasphemy; good for death penalty)
Good to say "Jesus = God". Jesus is part of God. Immense difference which you put LEFT of the "=" sign

If still unclear then fill in your own name, that will make it more clear in a second:
Wrong to say "God = whirlingmerc" ... you limit God big time
Good to say "whirlingmerc = God". whirlingmerc is part (child) of God

Jesus made the universe of oceans and in him all things hold together... so ... I'm not "on board" with saying Jesus is a drop.

Many Christians try to make "Jesus bigger", maybe this is selling better on the streets (evangelizing). But is this the truth?
(Note: According to the hypothesis above I can not belittle God, by saying "God = Jesus", correct?)

In the story I heard:
1) "God" created the "universe of oceans and in him all things hold together"
2) "Jesus" was a child born to a virgin called Maria (God created Jesus so to speak)
So I agree to disagree on this one.

Seems we read different versions of the Bible

Time for a song "A King in a Cattle Trough"
God could become a baby if we so desired... he can do anything...

Maybe like the old man Simeon you hold the baby as see things as Simeon did
seeing the Salvation of God The song "now that I've held him in my arms"

But don't forget, when listening, those words showing up "Biblical Imagination" (picture below)
I need not much "Imagination" to know what this means. Nice to listen to, but it is just a song

 

[wellwisher]

The idea of the Trinity did not make sense to me the first time I read about it, about 50 years ago. The dogma was the trinity and eventually, I just stopped fighting the idea. There is no Trinity in Islam. There is only one God. Most people are content to just follow their pastor because they think he will take the blame for doctrinal errors. In my opinion that's lazy. In the NT they are admonished to be like the Bereans, studying the scriptures daily. I'm alone, no reason to trust anyone but God.

Theoretically, a complete concept of God would need to include everything, since God is omniscience and omnipresent. This is conceptually beyond the human mind to comprehend and put into words, except as an intuition. Personification of God, is therefore more of a projection, based on a human subset, of what a complete concept of God is.

Concepts like the trinity break down the infinity, that is God, into three bite size pieces, based on how the majority of people worship and project.

As an analogy, Joe is a son to his parents, a husband to his wife, and a father to his children. He is respectful of his parents, loving and loyal to his wife, and firm but fair to his children. His parents interact in one way with him; nostalgia, his wife who is intimate with him interacts differently, while his children know him and interact with him in a third way.

Joe is one person but has three hats. The hat he uses depends on who is interacting with. This can get confusing during holidays, when all generations are in the same room and his children see Joes being treated like a child by his parents.

The Trinity works the same way. Some people interact with God like he is a father. They tend to be more connected to the Old Testament; Creationists. Other Christians see God as the son called Jesus. They relate in terms of an empathy for a child, who suffers but is nevertheless very positive and a source of love. Others worship in terms of the spirit, which is a creative animation of their soul; revivalists. All are parts of the whole and together unite the family of man. During the holidays, like Christmas, they all overlap and interchange; unity.

 

[BilliardsBall]

These days I believe in and worship God, Allah SWT, G_D, or the Creator because the evidence to me is too strong. I am open to the existence of Jesus. Sadly, those who are most vehement in their insistence about him, do most to show he didn't.

Yes, but that statement could also be true of other religious adherent, for example, devout Muslims who terrify the world through militarism, and devout atheists who troll on forums!

I would never ask a person to trust me for salvation, I would invite them instead to read the scriptures and examine the evidence for Jesus Christ.