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Featured Jesus is not God Almighty Himself

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by iam1me, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Says who?

    My post # 131, above, includes a Tanakh text telling us the Nephilim are big mighty warriors, = Canaanites, etc. Humans, not angel half-breeds.

    PS. I have a copy of Tanakh on my computer.

    *
     
  2. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    As to how do you come by the sons of God as being Hebrew, when in fact there were no Hebrew before the flood of Noah's.

    Hebrew didn't come by, until Abraham.
    Tanakh 14:13.

    So there were no Hebrew before the flood of Noah's.


    It's seems your saying things, that are not even in the Tanakh.

    Tanakh 6:4--"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of the nobles would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown.

    Notice the Tanakh does say ( The Nephilim were on the earth in those days )

    Just where were the Nephilim before they were on the earth ?
    Could it be the Nephilim were in heaven, before they came to be here on earth in those days.

    And just who are the ( Nobles ? )

    Notice the Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and afterward, When the sons of the nobles ( this being the Nephilim) would come to the daughters of men ( this being human beings ) and they bare for them.
    ( This being the daughters of men would bare children to the Nephilim.)

    It seems your having a hard time with reading the Tanakh.
    It seems you don't even know the Tanakh.

    PS. I also have the Tanakh.
     
    #142 Faithofchristian, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a misunderstanding here. I am not saying Moses transformed into a divine being.

    I understand god to mean mighty one.
    It doesn't mean that one changes form.
    A human can be considered a god, but that does not mean they gain some miraculous power.

    I don't have a problem if you want to limit a word to two definitions.
    The word is translated 'god', and still has other definitions that can be applied in its proper context.

    Strong's Hebrew: 430. אֱלֹהִים (elohim) -- God, god

    NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin - pl. of eloah
    Definition - God, god

    NASB Translation
    divine (1), divine being (1), exceedingly (1), God (2326), god (45), God's (14), goddess (2), godly (1), gods (204), great (2), judges (3), mighty (2), rulers (1), shrine* (1).

    Brown-Driver-Briggs
    אֱלֹהִים2570 noun masculine plural (feminine 1 Kings 11:33; on number of occurrences of אֵל, אֱלוֺהַּ, אֱלֹהִים compare also Nesl. c,)
    1 plural in number.

    a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power: האלהים Exodus 21:6 (Onk ᵑ6, but τὸ κριτήριον τοῦ Θεοῦ ᵐ5) Exodus 22:7; Exodus 22:8; אלהיםExodus 22:8; Exodus 22:27 (ᵑ7 Ra AE Ew RVm; but gods, ᵐ5Josephus Philo AV; God, Di RV; all Covt. code of E) compare 1 Samuel 2:25 see Dr.; Judges 5:8 (Ew, but gods ᵐ5; God ᵑ6 BarHebr.; יהוה ᵑ9Be) Psalm 82:1; Psalm 82:6 (De Ew Pe; but angels Bl Hup) Psalm 138:1 (ᵑ6 ᵑ7 Rab Ki De; but angels ᵐ5 Calv; God, Ew; gods, Hup Pe Che).

    b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels Psalm 8:6 (De Che Br; but angels ᵐ5 ᵑ6 ᵑ7 Ew; God, RV and most moderns) Genesis 1:27 (if with Philo ᵑ7 Jerome De Che we interpret נעשה as God's consultation with angels; compare Job 38:7).

    c. angels Psalm Job 97:7 (ᵐ5 ᵑ6 Calv; but gods, Hup De Pe Che); compare בני (ה)אלהים = (the) sons of God, or sons of gods = angels Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Job 38:7; Genesis 6:2,4 (J; so ᵐ5 Books of Enoch & Jubilees Philo Jude Jude 1:6 2Peter 2:4 JosAnt. i. 3. 1, most ancient fathers and modern critics; against usage are sons of princes, mighty men, Onk and Rab.; sons of God, the pious, Theod Chrys Jerome Augustine Luther Calv Hengst; ᵐ5L read οἱ υιὁὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ), compare בני אלים.

    d. gods האלהים Exodus 18:11; Exodus 22:19 (E) 1 Samuel 4:8; 2Chron 2:4; Psalm 86:8; אלהי האלהים the God of gods, supreme God Deuteronomy 10:17; Psalm 136:2; אלהים Exodus 32:1,23 (JE) Judges 9:13; אלהים אחרים other gods Exodus 20:3; Exodus 23:13; Joshua 24:2,16 (E) Deuteronomy 31:18,20 (JE) Deuteronomy 5:7 + (17 t. in D, not P) Judges 2:12,17,19; Judges 10:13; 1 Samuel 8:8; 1 Samuel 26:19; 1 Kings 9:6,9 (= 2 Chronicles 7:19,22) 2 Chronicles 11:4,10; 2 Chronicles 14:9; 2 Kings 5:17; 2 Kings 17:35,37,38; 2 Kings 22:17 (= 2 Chron 34:25) 2 Chronicles 28:25; Jeremiah 1:16 + (18 t. Jeremiah) Hosea 3:1; אלהי (ה)נכר foreign gods Genesis 35:2,4; Joshua 24:20,23 (E) Deuteronomy 31:16 (JE) Judges 10:16; 1 Samuel 7:3; 2Chronicles 33:15; Jeremiah 5:19; נחור ׳א Genesis 31:53 (E); מצרים ׳א Exodus 12:12 (P) Jeremiah 43:12,13; האמרי ׳א Joshua 24:15 (E) Judges 6:10; ארם ׳א etc. Judges 10:6; אלהים מעשה ידיDeuteronomy 4:28; הגוים ׳א gods of the nations 2 Kings 18:33; 2 Kings 19:12; Deuteronomy 29:17; 2Chronicles 32:17,19; Isaiah 36:18; Isaiah 37:12; העמים ׳א Deuteronomy 6:14; Deuteronomy 13:8; Judges 2:12; Psalm 96:5; 1 Chronicles 5:25; 1 Chronicles 16:26; 2Chronicles 32:13,14; כסף ׳א Exodus 20:23 (E); זהב ׳א Exodus 20:23 (E) Exodus 32:31 (JE); מַסֵּכָה ׳א Exodus 34:17 (J) Leviticus 19:4(H).

    2 Plural intensive.

    a. god or goddess, always with suffix 1 Samuel 5:7 (Dagon), Judges 11:24 (Chemosh), 1 Kings 18:24 (Baal), Judges 9:27; Daniel 1:2 (twice in verse); or construct לעשתרת מואב ׳צדנים לכמוש א ׳א to Ashtoreth goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh god of Moab, etc. 1 Kings 11:33; הארץ ׳א god of the land 2 Kings 17:26 (twice in verse); 2 Kings 17:27, and so the Syrians suppose that Yahweh is a mountain-god and not a god of valleys 1 Kings 20:28.

    b. godlike one Exodus 4:16 (J; Moses in relation to Aaron), Exodus 7:1(P; in relation to Pharaoh), 1 Samuel 28:13 (the shade of Samuel), Psalm 45:7 (the Messianic king, O God, ᵐ5 ᵑ6 Jerome, most scholars ancient and modern, but thy throne is God's = God's throne AE Ki Thea Ew Hup, compare 1 Chronicles 28:5). c. works of God, or things specially belonging to him (see אֵל 5) הר אלהים Psalm 68:16; Ezekiel 28:14,16; אש אלהים Job 1:16; גן (ה)אלהים Ezekiel 28:13; Ezekiel 31:8,9. d. God (see 3 & 4).


    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
    angels, exceeding, God, very great, mighty

    Plural of 'elowahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative -- angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
     
  4. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    We can call them YHVH's people, Jewish people, or whatever you prefer, - you know whom we are discussing.

    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Gen 4:11 And now art thou (Cain) cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

    Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

    Here we have the story of God's Sons, and the Fallen Sons, - right from the beginning. Cain, one of God's sons, falls.

    Ezr 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.

    Ezr 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. (This was happening over and over up to this point. The stories tell us so.)

    Supposedly Cain's line made it through the flood as one of Noah's son's wives. Usually thought to be Ham's wife as his son is Canaan who is the father of the Canaanites, whom we are told in Numbers 13 - are Nephilim from the fallen Nephilim of old.

    *
     
    #144 Ingledsva, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  5. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    I don't know why you took all that time to put in what I have already said.

    This info as stated does not change the fact that humans do not become gods. Not even in Tanakh. Ask our Jewish members.

    Christians are mistranslating the texts and causing confusion.

    They know what the correct translation should be as they have correctly translated it as judge in 1 Sa 2:25. They also have the Jewish commentary on Tanakh. These humans are not, and do not become, gods.

    1Sa 2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge (Elohiym) shall judge him: but if a man sin against YHVH, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

    In all of those texts that are not speaking of YHVH, the other definitions are correct.

    *
     
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    That isn't correct, though. My methodology doesn't leave a contradiction, in the Bible, for instance, at
    Hebrews 1:8
    Where the Abba, calls Jesus, God.
    Whereas, yours, does. Your methodology presents a contradictory Bible, aside from presenting a Bible that is vague, theologically.
     
    #146 Desert Snake, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  7. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Of course - our primary goal should be mutual edification and learning. I'll admit that some have said I'm kind of very competitive - so I'll still enjoy my little victories, haha :p Some competition is good and necessary in searching for the truth - you just can't get so competitive that it blinds you :)

    Proverbs 27:17Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.​

    Why pick one: the term Son and Father convey both meanings simultaneously. And this is not by mistake, those terms were chosen because of their natural meaning. Without good reason, we shouldn't be trying to find some alternative round-about interpretation that deprives the words of their meaning - which is simply intellectually dishonest. Note that the same cannot be said for my alternate usage of the word "God" since there is a lot of scriptural precedence behind it.

    Also, while we might no longer use "begotten" much in everyday speech, the term is well defined and understood. There is no mystery about what the term is meant to mean, and there is no precedent in scripture for alternate usage. There is no good reason to try to treat this as a mystery. Jesus is exactly what he claimed to be: the SON of God.

    As for your Colossians reference, the Spirit dwells within us as well - that doesn't make us the HS. Saying that the fullness of the Godhead dwells within him (vs, say, a portion for us) does not change the nature of what is being said. It does not say he is God - but differentiates him from God by asserting that God dwells IN him. There is a separation between the two (and not just between Jesus and a hypothetical piece of God, like the Father). And this fact is made clear when we consider all of the different verses in scripture concerning the Son and God - there is simply no denying that scripture differentiates the Son from God and presents him as subordinate.

    The New Testament is written in Greek - but passages like the one in question are actually direct quotes of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is written in Hebrew, so we can look at what the Hebrew says to tell us what the New Testament authors meant - if there be any doubt. Check the foot notes - they will usually provide you with the old testament scripture reference.

    The New Testament authors are explicit about the fact that Jesus is created. That's why he is continually referered to as Son, Only Begotten, First of Creation, etc. There's no mystery as to what these things mean. Trinitarians try to act like there is some mystery here - but that is merely a defense mechanism to protect their doctrine. It is the burden on the Trinitarian to show that these things should be taken in some other sense than the literal one.

    There is only one true God - and he is greater than the Son, by the Son's own admission and by the consistent testimony of the scriptures. God has given Christ his power and authority - they are not innate to him as they are with God Almighty. Jesus is indwelt with the fullness of God - differentiating him from God. We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit - that does not make us the Holy Spirit.

    That is easy. It is the same as the difference between you and your father. There is no mystery in these terms. There is no reason to believe they mean anything other than what their natural usage would indicate.

    Jesus never once claimed to be God Almighty himself - but always insisted upon being less than the Father. I've addressed John 10 many times now. You focus on the reaction of the jews and ignore Christ's reply - which is kind of important!

    John 10:30-39 "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may f]">[f]know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.​

    Reviewing Christ's reply to their allegations we find...
    1. He points out that scripture calls all of them gods (so even if he made such a claim, scripture declares such to be true for all jews)
    2. What Jesus actually says of himself is "I am the Son of God." Never once does Christ say he is God Almighty himself, but always claims to be the Son thereof and maintains he is less than the Father.
    3. He asks: do you say of (me) "You are blaspheming" because I said "I am the Son of God"? He asks this after pointing out that scriptures calls them all gods, so what Jesus claims of himself is less than even what scriptures say.- Jesus clearly does not consider such a statement blasphemous, nor is it. In fact, Israel is called God's Son in scripture too (Hosea 11:1).

    Nothing Jesus says here is blasphemous - it is all entirely consistent with what the scriptures already say of the jews in general. And, again, he doesn't claim to be God - but the Son thereof.

    Incorrect - you'll never see me use the KJV. It is well known to be full of errors. It wasn't translated from the Greek directly - such as with modern translations like the NASB. The KJV is an old english translation from an older Latin translation that was known to be full of errors. So you have translation errors compounding on top of translation errors across these languages - and then the reader must further translate the old english into modern english. It is simply unwise to use the KJV as your go to bible for these reasons.

    There are plenty of resources online to study the various errors of the KJV - it's all pretty well documented.

    This is a video series I've found to be pretty high-quality (academically) on youtube. It'll give you an introduction to some of these issues:

     
    #147 iam1me, Aug 23, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  8. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    That's not how humbling oneself works ;) When we humble ourselves before God, or other men, its not about coming down from some place of glory. It is a matter of ones attitude and perspective with respect to others. It's about acting insignificant, to even be a servant, etc.
     
    #148 iam1me, Aug 23, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If you notice there's not much difference between, What the Tanakh is saying and what the Christian bible is saying.

    Tanakh Genesis 3:15--"And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed, He shall crush your head, and you will bite his heel"

    Christian bible Genesis 3:15--"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed,
    It shall brusie your head and you shalt brusie his heel"

    Now here's what you said ( Here we have the story of God's sons, and the fallen sons, right from the beginning, Cain one of God's sons falls)


    Seeing Eve became pregnant, carrying two sons, one being Cain and the other being Able.

    And seeing God told the Serpent, that there would be hatred between her seed and between the Serpents seed.


    So we find in the Tanakh Genesis 4:8---"And Cain spoke to Abel his brother, and it came to pass when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him"
    And we find in the Christian bible
    Genesis 4:8--"And Cain talk with Able his brother, and it came to pass, When they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Able his brother, and slew him"

    So what we find here is the fulfillment of what God told the Serpent what would happen. hatred between his seed and the woman's seed.

    That the seed of the Serpent and the woman's seed , that there would hatred between the two seeds.
    So you can read in the Tanakh Genesis 3:15 and 4:8.
    And the Christian bible Genesis 3:15 and 4:8.

    So we find the hatred first starting with Cain and Able.
    Cain being the seed of the Serpent, and Able being the seed of the woman, Eve.

    We will find John the disciple of Christ Jesus writing in 1st John 3:12--" Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous"

    Here we find, Cain being of that wicked one, Which none other the Serpent.
    And slew his brother Able.
    Therefore Cain is not the son of God, But the son of the Serpent. Which is the Devil.
    As for Able is the son of God.
    So we find the fulfillment of what God said to the Serpent back in the Tanakh Genesis 3:15 and 4:8.
    And the Christian bible Genesis 3:15 and 4:8.
    All came to God's fulfillment.

    I see what your doing, Your the same as alot of Christians do, pick out one or two Verse's and goes about building off of them.

    Instead of reading the whole chapter 3 and maybe in this case the proceeding
    chapter 4.
    So that Chapter 3 and 4 goes together, to give us a clearer understanding of what is being said and done.

    There is no where whether it be the Tanakh or the Christian bible that will say, Cain as being the son of God, But that Cain is the son of the Serpent the Devil. As God foretold the Serpent, hatred between his seed and the woman's seed.
    So it was, Cains hatred caused him to kill his brother Able.

    Now I have a question, Whether it be in the Tanakh or the Christian bible, what is Cains children called, by what name ?

    Have you any idea or clue by what name Cains children are called by.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "Firstborn" is a term fully understood by all humans. The firstborn in Israel had more rights to inheritance than younger siblings.

    "Only begotten" is used in the Bible to denote an "only child" (monogenes) Since God has many sons, his "firstborn" is the first one produced from the Father. Why do we need to change the meaning of these words to accommodate a false belief? They are Father and son as we understand the terms.

    He didn't. The word "god" in Greek does not denote a single deity.
    Satan is called a god.....it simply means 'a powerful one' or 'divine' one. Christ's divinity does not make him equal with his Father. The term "Almighty" means that there is no one greater in power than Jehovah.

    I believe they did. In the book of Job, the sons of God are said to be observing creation and shouting in applause. (Job 38:4-7)

    The same difference between you and a son of yours. Is your son you? Or is he a reflection of you? Is he as old as you? Can a son ever be brought into existence at the same time as his father?
    He gave us these terms to describe their relationship. If they were equals, then they would simply have different names.


    When did the disciples address him as God? If you mean that once with Thomas, then an expression of shock by a doubter putting his fingers in the wounds of a materialised body, is hardly proof that the apostles thought he was God. When asked who they thought Jesus was, Peter answered for the group....
    "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did".

    Did Peter hesitate to confirm that Jesus was "the son of the living God"? Who revealed that to Peter?

    LOL ....this is the scripture from which Jehovah's Witnesses get their name. There is no God but Jehovah. Jesus is not "God" but he is divinely created. That makes him "a god" in the Greek definition of the word. Jesus even said that Jehovah called human judges in Israel "gods" because of their divine authority. The title "God" is not exclusive to Jehovah in the scriptures.


    To whom does this title Alpha and Omega" properly belong? (1) At Revelation 1:8, its owner is said to be God, the Almighty. In verse 11 according to KJ, that title is applied to one whose description thereafter shows him to be Jesus Christ. But scholars recognize the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 11 to be spurious, and so it does not appear in RS, ASV, NE, JB, NAB, Dy. (2) Many translations of Revelation into Hebrew recognize that the one described in verse 8 is Jehovah, and so they restore the personal name of God there.

    '
    He is made like the Son of God in remaining a priest perpetually.
    Jesus is immortal and will never die again. A priest in Israel could only be such according to the tribe he was born into. (The tribe of Levi) No others could be priests, just as the tribe of Judah could only produce kings. Without genealogy, no one could claim either role. Mel·chizʹe·dek was both a king and a priest, just as Jesus is, by divine appointment.

    What beginning is this? Jehovah is an eternal being without beginning or end.....Jesus had a beginning. He is "the beginning of God's creation" as Revelation 3:14 plainly says.

    Father and son were a team. Proverbs 8:30-31 says that he was God's Master Worker, working alongside his Father. Why is that so hard to understand? We are created in God's image just as the son is the image of his Father...Colossians 1:15.

    God owns the truth and reveals it to those whom he chooses.
    He does not correct those who are deluded if they are set on believing a lie. If they embrace a delusion then he will let them keep it.

    Paul wrote...."But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

    I believe that when Jesus said that "few" would be found on the road to life, it is because the "many" have chosen to travel the wrong road. (Matthew 7:13-14) It will result in Jesus confessing that he never knew these ones who acknowledge him as "Lord". (Matthew 7:21-23) They apparently cannot believe that Jesus has rejected them. They had clung to the delusion that they were Christ's followers, because they did not believe the truth when they heard it.

    This is why we must be certain about the validity and origins of our beliefs.
     
    #150 Deeje, Aug 23, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
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  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    He committed no sin of pride, ever, the opposite of humility, and did not need to humble Himself other than to appear veiled in flesh, which is why His garments shone whiter than any launderer could make them when, immediately following His proclamation that some would see His glory, He glorified Himself.

    All scriptures speaking of the creation or resurrection of Jesus are speaking of the last day in the tomb. Jesus is God, coeternal, with the Father.
     
  12. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    Deeje are you prepared to challenge a doctrine that you’ve been taught your whole life, and come to the truth for yourself, or are you willing to stick to a particular Bible version for the rest of your life? Iam1me was brave enough to start this thread and question the truth for himself, and if you are not prepared to do the same, I suggest you stop reading. With that being said, let’s go through the Biblical text. Note that I am sticking to the NASB bible for the remainder of these conversations. I will also compare the text to what the New World Translation says on occasion.


    So it seems the only ‘evidence’ of Jesus’ creation are two words: ‘begotten’ and ‘firstborn’. Let’s look at the context of when these words were first used in the Bible, and the author’s intention for using this particular language.

    'Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the Lord , "Israel is My son, My firstborn. ' Exodus 4:22

    '"With weeping they will come, And by supplication I will lead them; I will make them walk by streams of waters, On a straight path in which they will not stumble; For I am a father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn."' Jeremiah 31:9

    As one can note, in the Hebrew Bible, firstborn also had a quite allegorical meaning behind it. It not only signified the firstborn of a human or an animal, but it also signified the authority and rights of the child as the firstborn in the patriarch’s family. One can see the authority and privilege that God granted over Israel as God’s chosen people, and the close bond He had with them.

    The term firstborn also had a Messianic inference to it, similar to that of King David.
    '"I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.' Psalms 89:27


    The term firstborn is used six times in the New Testament, and one can note that its meaning should be consistent throughout all 6 contexts.

    'For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; ' Romans 8:29

    'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. ' Colossians 1:15

    'He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. ' Colossians 1:18

    'And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, " and let all the angels of God worship Him ."' Hebrews 1:6

    'to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ' Hebrews 12:23

    'and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood- ' Revelation 1:5


    Clearly the term firstborn cannot mean create in all 6 contexts, so it must have been used to denote ‘first of importance/significance’ by the authors.


    It is also worthwhile noting the differences in translation between the NASB and NWT

    'For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. '
    Colossians 1:16 (NASB)

    Because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Colossians 1:16 (NWT)


    One can note that the word ‘other’, which does not appear in the original Greek has been added to the New World translation with regards to this verse. Now adding words is common practice in English translations to make the reading easier, but it should never change the overall meaning of the passage. If adding in words skews the interpretation towards a particular doctrine, we can say that there is bias in the translation.

    Colossians 1 Interlinear Bible


    Moving on, whilst the word ‘begotten’ is only mentioned 6 times in the English translation, the original Greek (monogenes) is actually used 9 times. And every time it is only used in the context of an only child.

    'Now as He approached the gate of the city, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow; and a sizeable crowd from the city was with her. ' Luke 7:12

    'for he had an only daughter, about twelve years old, and she was dying. But as He went, the crowds were pressing against Him. ' Luke 8:42

    'And a man from the crowd shouted, saying, "Teacher, I beg You to look at my son, for he is my only boy, ' Luke 9:38

    'By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; ' Hebrews 11:17

    'And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. ' John 1:14

    'No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. ' John 1:18

    '"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ' John 3:16

    'He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ‘ John 3:18

    'By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. ' 1 John 4:9


    Did the Jewish writers use the word monogenes to denote creation? It does not seem logical to call your only child created in all the above contexts.

    Please make sure to check out the original Greek.
    Luke 1 Interlinear Bible
    Hebrews 1 Interlinear Bible
    John 1 Interlinear Bible
    1 John 1 Interlinear Bible


    Let’s look at some scriptures in Revelations:
    '"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." ' Revelation 1:8
    '"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." '

    Revelation 22:12-13

    ‘Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." '
    Revelation 5:11-13
    'Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." '
    Revelation 11:15


    When you read the above passages do you see a clear separation in power, or unity in power?

    The Greek word used for beginning is ‘arche’. It is used to denote a “ruler, source, or origin”. Thus John was writing that Jesus was the source or origin of God’s creation.

    So are we not also created in Christ’s image since he was creating alongside the Father?
     
    #152 Thinking Homer, Aug 23, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You keep saying, they
    Can you explain what you mean by that?
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I must not be understanding you or you might not be understanding me.
    Could you explain... what are you saying? Are you saying the verses I used have contradictions?
     
  15. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Not sinning is not the opposite of humility. The opposite of humility is pride, arrogance, and the like. You can be humble regardless of sin, and one can be prideful and arrogant regardless of sin.

    The scriptures say something very different. According to Christ himself he is the Son of God. And a father must always proceed a son in time, and the latter is - generally - subordinate to the prior. In fact, scripture repeatedly declares that God is greater than the Son. You can choose to ignore these things - but if you do then your position can't be considered intellectually honest.
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    No, I'm saying, your methodology presents contradictions, in other verses.

    I personally don't care if there are contradictions in the Bible, and just choose my own book adherence, anyway.

    So, if you really need that whole bible, your methodology is very problematic.
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me. You have lost me.
    Could you give me an example please?
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    #158 Desert Snake, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  19. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    I think I'm beginning to see where the confusion started. Let's look at the overall narrative here. When you have a human father and a child, what can you say about their relationship?
    1) The child is subservient to the father (father is greater than the son)
    2) The child listens to everything the father tells him to do
    3) The child came after the father
    4) Both the child and the father are human

    Now let's apply this logic to Yahweh and Jesus
    5) Jesus is subservient to Yahweh
    6) The Son obeys the Father's will
    7) The Son came after the Father
    8) Both the Son and Father are God, or at least God-like entities.

    The NT authors used human terms in order that we may understand the relationship between the Father and the Son, but we should not go beyond the application of those terms. Points 7 and 8 are in clear contradiction with each other for the following reason:

    A human father cannot create a child, he can beget a child. If the human decides to create something, the end product will always be inferior to that of the designer. (less than human e.g. a table)

    Likewise God cannot create a Son of God. He can create angels, He can create humans, but the end-product will never share the core nature of His entity. To call something 'Son of God' would mean it would have to share the core characteristics of the Father which is: omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence. If God is eternal, His Son would also have to be eternal, otherwise Jesus would no longer be His Son. If God really created Jesus, the Son would be more like an angel, he could never claim Sonship with Yahweh (As Hebrews 1 clearly explains).

    If you read the Bible with a presupposition that Jesus was created, that's what you are going to get at the end: a presupposition. If you read the Bible without any implanted doctrines, read the verses in context, and understand the narrative, it becomes clear what to think of Jesus.

    This is what the Bible says about Yahweh (red) and Jesus (blue):
    'Thus says the Lord , your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord , am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, '
    Isaiah 44:24

    'And, " you , Lord , in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth , and the heavens are the works of your hands ;' Hebrews 1:10


    '"Thus says the Lord , the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. ' Isaiah 44:6
    'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." ' Revelation 22:13


    'For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. ' Deuteronomy 10:17
    'which He will bring about at the proper time-He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, ' 1 Timothy 6:15


    'Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?" '
    Genesis 18:25

    'For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, ' John 5:22

    '"I, even I, am the Lord , And there is no savior besides Me.' Isaiah 43:11
    'And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." ' Acts 4:12

    'They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God. ' Ezekiel 37:23
    'who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. ' Titus 2:14

    'In the day of my trouble I shall call upon You, For You will answer me.' Psalms 86:7
    'If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. ' John 14:14


    '"I am the Lord , that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.' Isaiah 42:8
    'Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. ' John 17:5

    I think the Jewish authors in the New Testament knew exactly whom Jesus was referring to Himself as. Hence the opening statement in the first chapter of John. You might say that the term 'God' is used loosely throughout the Bible, but I think context is everything. What was John really trying to say? I think he was trying to assert the divinity of Jesus Christ and his equal standing with the Father.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I was raised in Christendom so, yes, I once believed what you believe.....but I found out that what I was taught all my life was nothing but a bunch of lies.
    I found out the origins of these doctrines and was horrified and disgusted that the churches know the truth about them and yet, still cling to them. We are not supposed to "touch" pagan teachings that are spiritually "unclean" in God's eyes. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
    If that offends you then perhaps it is you who should stop reading. :D

    When Daniel prophesied that a "cleansing, whitening and refining" was to take place among God's people "in the time of the end", (Daniel 12:9-10) he was telling us what had to happen to rid Christianity of the things that made it unacceptable to its founder. The wicked were going to going to carry on, granted no insight.....business as usual. I believe that it is these whom Christ addresses in Matthew 7:21-23.

    As you wish...but why stop at one translation? Compare many and then refer to Strongs for the original language meanings. Its a real eye opener.

    Using language that humans understand, "begotten" means that the begotten one needs a 'begetter' who is naturally older than their 'begotten'.....why is it different for Jesus than any other personage to whom the word applies?
    "Firstborn" too means only one thing to us humans. Why apply a different meaning to a word that is commonly used? You only have to give these words a different meaning if you want to support a doctrine that the Bible doesn't teach.

    Yep...."firstborn" actually meant firstborn....ya know.....the one born first. The oldest sibling. Inheritance rights favored the firstborn.

    An examination of Psalm 89 reveals that the subject matter is the Kingdom covenant. Psalm 89 Verses 19, 20 and 29 of this psalm read: “At that time you spoke in a vision to your loyal ones, and you proceeded to say: ‘I have placed help upon a mighty one; I have exalted a chosen one from among the people. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him . . . And I shall certainly set up his seed forever and his throne as the days of heaven.’”

    The account of 1 Chronicles 17 reveals that the promise of a continuing dynasty in the house of David was revealed to the prophet Nathan in a vision. First Chronicles 17:15 tells us: “According to all these words and according to all this vision was the way that Nathan spoke to David.” Therefore, David is receiving the divine revelation through Nathan.

    Who said "firstborn" means "create"? In each of those scriptures, "firstborn" simply means the one who was first.

    Romans 8:28-29 is speaking about Jesus being the first of those raised to heaven. No one went to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) but many will join him as kings and priests in heaven. (Revelation 20:6)

    Colossians 1:15....Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation"...self explanatory.

    Colossians 1:18 Jesus is the "firstborn from the dead".....again the first one to be born as a human who died and was raised as a spirit. All others who were resurrected before Jesus were brought back to life in the flesh. (Like Lazarus)

    Hebrews 1:6....When is God going to bring his "firstborn into the world again"? He doesn't cease to be God's firstborn when he returns to take his anointed to heaven.

    The angels do not "worship" Jesus. The writer of Hebrews is here quoting from Psalm 97:7, which reads (in part): “Bow down to him, all you gods.”
    The Greek word is "pro·sky·ne΄o" and it is rendered as "worship" to Jehovah alone, but it becomes "obeisance" when rendered to anyone else. It is an act of bowing down in respect. It is what the magi did to Jesus.....not as an act of worship but as an act of respect for a royal child. They wanted to give their gifts to "the one born king of the Jews"....not to God incarnate.
     
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