1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Jesus is not God Almighty Himself

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by iam1me, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,596
    Ratings:
    +1,526
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe Jesus is what God says He is. What people say is irrelevant.
     
  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,596
    Ratings:
    +1,526
    Religion:
    Christian
    We are one when the Holy Spirit is Lord of our lives. If we choose to run our own lives we are not one. The Holy Spirit is already one with the Father and the Son.
     
  3. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,596
    Ratings:
    +1,526
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that is not how it should be. Each of us is capable of having the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to us and His truth does not vary.
     
  4. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2018
    Messages:
    530
    Ratings:
    +221
    Religion:
    Christian

    All traiditional Jews and Christians recognize that angels and men are called God and gods - and they know that the term "God" in these contexts is not to be interpreted literally. I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding this.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    False god
    The god thor
    As a god
    Moses wasnt called god, no examples of men being called god, angels are called angels, not God, unless misinterpreted.
    God gothic /english usage name and word that correlates to Biblical usage of the deific name.

    The name and word, God, is contextual, as a word unto itself.
    The word god isnt elohim, specifically, isnt el shaddai, specifically, isnt jesus, specifically, and does not refer to people, as a name.
    The psalms verse is clearly referring to God, talking to angels, not men,
    because God, judgeth, the angels. That is why, God says, they will be cast down.

    \\gods , other gods, gods of the nations, or simply 'angels', though my use of the word angels here is meaning "divine being", broadly.
     
    #365 Desert Snake, Aug 31, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  6. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2018
    Messages:
    530
    Ratings:
    +221
    Religion:
    Christian
    I don't think further discourse with you on this matter, at this point in time, is going to be very productive. You refuse to accept simple, irrefutable facts about what the scriptures say - we can't even get to interpretation. Like continuing to assert that Moses wasn't addressed as God despite Exodus 7:1 being given to you :coldsweat:
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,442
    Ratings:
    +1,144
    Religion:
    Xian
    What people say [about Jesus] is irrelevant, we agree.
     
  8. user4578

    user4578 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2016
    Messages:
    80
    Ratings:
    +21
    The verse contains the phrase 'to Pharaoh', meaning that's what Moses appeared to be 'to Pharaoh', given the hierarchy of the dialogue between Moses and Pharaoh. Aaron his brother wasn't really Moses' prophet, but in the analogy he is said to be his prophet, because he is the one that relayed all of the words of Moses to Pharaoh(Exodus 4:16,7:2). Maybe you think Moses worshipped himself, but God told him otherwise(Exodus 3:12), and also he was called a servant of God(1 Kings 8:56, Nehemiah 10:28-29).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2018
    Messages:
    530
    Ratings:
    +221
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hi user4578. No one is asserting that Moses is literally God himself. The point is that Moses is addressed as God - despite not literally being God. Rather, Moses was asserted to be God to Pharaoh (by God himself) because God was sending him as his representative, his mediator, his agent. The same reason that angels are called God (like the angel in the burning bush in Exodus 3) and the reason that the Jewish People are called gods (for it is through them that God has chosen to bring about his will, culminating in Christ).

    So you see - the term "God" is much more liberally applied in scripture than how theologians, and Trinitarians specifically, have traditionally interpreted the term. The challenge to Trinitarians, then, is to not show that Jesus is addressed as God - but to show that when the term is used with Jesus it isn't being used in the same sense as the above when applied to other men and angels.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. user4578

    user4578 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2016
    Messages:
    80
    Ratings:
    +21
    This does not address the reasoning outlined above, but asserts an ideology not explicit in Exodus 7:1-2, the verses I was addressing.
     
  11. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2018
    Messages:
    530
    Ratings:
    +221
    Religion:
    Christian
    What I said is essentially the same thing you said - I didn't see any reason to specifically address your view of it as an analogy.

    What is going on here is no different than a King sending a representative to others: that representative carries the power and authority of the one who sent him, and for all intents and purposes is to be regarded as the King himself - in so far as he is carrying out the King's will. And this is made clear when we look at the various instances where angels and men are called God or gods - this is a consistent theme running throughout.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,400
    Ratings:
    +425
    Religion:
    Christian
    Correct!

    Moses was not made God or "a God". He was made "as" or "like" God to Pharaoh. Being "a God" and being "like a God" are vastly different things.

    God stated Moses would be "as God" to Pharaoh. So Moses is likened to a God to Pharaoh, and Aaron as a mouth to Moses, or in current parlance, a simile.

    A simile does not make Moses an actual God anymore that it makes Aaron an actual mouth. There is only one God, and any other God or Gods are bogus.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,348
    Ratings:
    +13,292
    Just thinking the problem I see with trinitarian is not understanding jesus is speaking for God in his comments from him.

    But, I do think the point is easy to read in scriptures in English. It's very direct especially when understood English in its contextual use of grammar and message like idioms and how one person can speak for another without directly shifting that dialogue to the person speaking.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,650
    Ratings:
    +8,307
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    The pre-human Jesus was called the LOGOS which means "the Word".....he was God's 'spokesman'....he spoke God's words to others.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,348
    Ratings:
    +13,292
    I can see that. I got it just from reading the bible. I dont know the greek terminology, and not really sure how quoting it makes the message different than in english unless the english version is wrong. shrugs.

    (aka its a compliment)
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,650
    Ratings:
    +8,307
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Thank you, I appreciate that. :)

    Quoting the reasons why I believe something is not always for the poster I am addressing, but for the benefit of others who might need to see something more concrete than a suggestion with nothing to back it up.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    37,348
    Ratings:
    +13,292
    Haha. Annoys the bajebees out of me. But, yeah. It's interesting. If I'm talking to a Christian they don't preface every sentence by scripture. "I love the Lord. God is good (verse 3.34) do you have the Lord. He saves us all (John 3:16) and did you know....

    Now That would make an interesting convo.

    But my comment was really to say not many understand jesus is speaking for his father. He always say something about his father before quoting him. I don't think it's a translation issue but just not reading the context just as is mentality.
     
  18. tayla

    tayla My dog's name is Tayla

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,997
    Ratings:
    +454
    Religion:
    nontheist
    Yes, this is true.

    There are only two possible correct and true understandings of the person of Jesus:
    1. He was an apocalyptic prophet (like John the Baptist) who was accidentally crucified by the Romans, then later turned into the Jesus of Christianity.
    2. He didn't exist at all.
     
    #378 tayla, Sep 11, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2018
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,694
    Ratings:
    +6,349
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Why in the world would you say there are only two possible understandings of the person of Jesus, when the viewpoints expressed on this single internet forum clearly prove that there are many others?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. tayla

    tayla My dog's name is Tayla

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,997
    Ratings:
    +454
    Religion:
    nontheist
    By "possible", I mean, "correct" or "true". There are always zillions of viewpoints possible for any topic.

    I will change my post to say "possible correct". Thanks for pointing out the ambiguity.
     
Loading...