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Featured Jesus is not God Almighty Himself

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by iam1me, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That would be because Jesus said to worship Jehovah "alone". (Luke 4:5-8) He called his Father "the only true God" (John 17:3)

    "Proskyneo" can be translated as either "obeisance" or "worship" depending on the context. If it is rendered to God, it is "worship", but if it applies to any other personage, it is rightly translated "obeisance" in the NWT. It is an act of reverence based on respect for that person's position.

    Can you answer my question please. Did the magi render "worship" to the child Jesus or was it "obeisance"?
     
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  2. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    I want to focus more on Bible translations, and not my personal opinion for the time being. I asked for nPeace to compare translations between the NASB and the NWT, and gave him my view on what translators can do, and what they should not do. I asked him to view the NASB, and he said it was biased because of one verse in Matthew 18:26. I think for the remainder of the discussion on this topic, we can compare the NWT to the KJV, since the KJV is the closest translation I know to the NWT that hasn't been translated by the Watchtower. Also the translators have been consistent in translating 'proskuneo' as worship in Matthew 18:26 as well.

    I'm going to forward what I said to nPeace:
    It seems whenever 'proskyneo' is applied to Jesus or other people it is translated as obeisance, and whenever this word is applied to Jehovah it is translated into 'worship'. You might not see a problem with that, but that is because you have gone in with the presupposition that worship only belongs to Jehovah.

    You might ask me, does worship not only belong to Jehovah? Again not the point I am trying to make. The role of the translators is not to interpret the context for us. Their role is trying to translate the text as accurately as possible, to the best of their ability from the original Greek. The interpretation then after lies with the reader.

    Reference verses: (Please compare NWT with KJV)
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    As I have just returned from a 3 day convention, I will be happy to do the comparisons after a good night's sleep.

    Just as a side point.....in the British legal system, (followed also in Australia) when a judge is called "your honor" in the US, they used to be addressed as "your worship" here in Oz. This conveys the true meaning of the word when not used in relation to God.

    Later.....
     
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  4. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    I once told a Muslim that Elohim was a plural word and that Jesus was with Jehovah in the beginning of creation, hence He said "Let us make man in Our image". He told me that that was just a royal declaration (like British royalty), and that Yahweh was all by Himself. I forgot to tell him that such a thing was only implemented many centuries later.
     
  5. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    iam1me is not the only one who doesn't understand the trinity. Nobody can understand the trinity because it makes no sense. Anybody who says they do understand it is fooling themselves. They use non-biblical terms (essence, substance, incarnation, et.al.) in an attempt to understand, but it defies any logic whatsoever and the mind God gave us depends on logic to make sense of anything. The very thought process you used to describe three things that are one and then said none of them are each other is illogical. It's amazing how so many people could be talked into the trinity for so many years. I suppose the threat of being burned at the stake for not believing it was somewhat of a motivation.
     
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "The plural form of the noun here in Hebrew is the plural of majesty or excellence. (See NAB, St. Joseph Edition, Bible Dictionary, p. 330; also, New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. V, p. 287.) It conveys no thought of plurality of persons within a godhead. In similar fashion, at Judges 16:23 when reference is made to the false god Dagon, a form of the title ’elo·himʹ is used; the accompanying verb is singular, showing that reference is to just the one god. At Genesis 42:30, Joseph is spoken of as the “lord” (’adho·nehʹ, the plural of excellence) of Egypt.

    The Greek language does not have a ‘plural of majesty or excellence.’ So, at Genesis 1:1 the translators of LXX used ho The·osʹ (God, singular) as the equivalent of ’Elo·himʹ. At Mark 12:29, where a reply of Jesus is reproduced in which he quoted Deuteronomy 6:4, the Greek singular ho The·osʹ is similarly used.

    At Deuteronomy 6:4, the Hebrew text contains the Tetragrammaton twice, and so should more properly read: “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” (NW) The nation of Israel, to whom that was stated, did not believe in the Trinity. The Babylonians and the Egyptians worshiped triads of gods, but it was made clear to Israel that Jehovah is different."

    Trinity — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
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  7. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    I know that JW think of the trinity as some sort of pagan religion, and that's why they reject it so strongly. I actually sympathize with your theology a lot in some aspects, but the thing is, the deity of Jesus is a very complicated topic. His humanity is one thing, but you must also look at his existence before and afterwards.
    Iam1me studied the Bible and the ante-Nicene fathers for himself, and came to the conclusion that the entity known as "God" only encompassed Jehovah. I did the same thing, but with the post-Nicene fathers, and I came to the conclusion that "God" encompassed the Son as well as His Spirit.

    My purpose in engaging with you is not to force my doctrines on you, but as an outsider to point out some things which I noticed when I was studying through some of the theology that the Watchtower teaches. What I hope is that each of us will keep an open mind, and see each other as fellow Christians, who uphold Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Be skeptical, challenge my views, but also be objective and impartial. Feel free to read Watchtower sources, but also make sure to check out non-Watchtower affiliated sources as well.
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What do these verses say?

    Matthew 14:33 NWT..."Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You really are God’s Son.”

    KJV....."Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

    No Jew would have fallen at the feet of a human being to worship him. They were told not to worship angels.

    John 4:20...NWT..."Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.”

    KJV, NASB and others..."Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”

    Again, this is worship pertaining to God so properly translated as faithful to its proper meaning.

    Hebrews 1:6 NWT..."But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

    KJV..."And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

    The same word, (proskyneo) with the same definition given by Strongs. (below)

    Do angels worship Jesus?

    Revelation 19:10...NWT "At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God!...”

    ASV "And I fell down before his feet to worship him. And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren that hold the testimony of Jesus: worship God...."

    Revelation 5:13-14...KJV
    "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

    NWT.."And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth+ and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped."

    The NASB says....

    "And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
    “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
    14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped."

    Read the verses carefully...all creation is giving "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power" to God who is sitting on his throne, AND to the Lamb. But the elders fell down and worshipped God. When worship is directed to God, it is proper worship.



    But here is a case in point.....is "worship" appropriate in this verse?

    Matthew 18:26...NWT "So the slave fell down and did obeisance to him, saying, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay back everything to you.’

    KJV..."The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

    ESV..."So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’"

    TLB..."But the man fell down before the king, his face in the dust, and said, ‘Oh, sir, be patient with me and I will pay it all.’"

    NIV..."At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’"

    Other translations have not rendered this as "worship" because it clearly isn't.

    Matthew 28:9 NWT....."And look! Jesus met them and said: “Good day!” They approached and took hold of his feet and did obeisance to him."

    KJV...."And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."

    And so on.....The KJV renders "proskyneo" as "worship" in all verses.....but should it?

    Please tell me what a translator's job is? If someone takes on the task of translating one language into another, then it is the meaning of the word that needs to be addressed, not just the word itself.

    "Proskyneo" is used in the scriptures to denote both "worship" (when directed to God) and "obeisance" when directed to others. Is it important to make a distinction between the two? Absolutely!

    The NASB renders "proskneo" in Matthew 18:26....
    “So G3767 the slave G1401 fell G4098 to the ground and prostrated G4352 himself G4352 before G4352 him, saying, G3004 ‘Have G3114 patience G3114 with me and I will repay G591 you everything.’ G3956


    Strongs gives this definition of proskyneo.....

    Outline of Biblical Usage

    1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
    2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

    3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"
    I am afraid that your arguments are rather hollow and skewed towards the translations that support a trinity in this case.

    Strongs definition fits the NWT, not the ones who show bias in rendering the word "worship" where it does not belong.

    All other versions render "proskyneo" as "worship" when directed to Jesus. That is trinitarian bias and assumes that Jesus accepted worship when he never once did. He directed all worship to his Father saying...."him alone you should serve" (Luke 4:5-8)

    At Matthew 2:11 proskyneo is used of the magi when visiting the child Jesus to give him gifts.

    The ASV and all others renders that verse..."And they came into the house and saw the young child with Mary his mother; and they fell down and worshipped him; and opening their treasures they offered unto him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh."

    Is that the correct rendering though? Did the magi "worship" Jesus? In verse 2 they said...."“Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”


    Is that what they said? They had come to "honor" the one "born king of the Jews"....as pagan astrologers, they most certainly did not see Jesus as a deity....but as a newborn king.

    Translators have a very important job and if they fail to translate the words correctly because of doctrinal bias, then where does that lead people?...to God or away from him?

    Those who seek the truth will see the difference.
     
    #228 Deeje, Aug 26, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Actually the personage of Jesus Christ in his pre-human...human...and post-human positions is not complicated at all until you try to make him into a triad......something that was not new to paganism. The trinity dates back to ancient Babylon.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    But the strange thing is that a trinity concept is completely missing from both of the other "Abrahamic" faiths. The Jews and Muslims have never believed in a triune God. Christianity didn't have one either until apostasy began to supplant the truth of Christ's teachings at the beginning of the 2nd century. By stealth, it gained a foothold, and the rest as they say, is history.....a very unpleasant history.

    Anything written after the last apostle died, is not to be taken as scripture. The apostles wrote in a window of time that closed after the writing of Christian scripture was complete. The one thing that kept the truth of Christ's teaching pure (the presence of the apostles) was to pass away and apostasy was to take over as "weeds" in the same field as the "wheat". Christendom, I believe, is a product of that apostasy.

    I appreciate your views and I also appreciate why you need to retain and defend them. As one who shared those views at one time, I can see also where they came from and why the churches must defend them so strongly.....but truth conquers error and God's spirit is more powerful than the devil's attempts to muddy up the waters of truth. Jesus said we would "know the truth" and that it "would set us free". Not until we rid ourselves of the shackles of false Christianity will we know what that freedom means. It has to be experienced.

    Understanding who Jesus was before he came to offer salvation to mankind is of the utmost importance. His mortal state as a human also need to be understood, and what he became on his returned to heaven is also vital to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

    This has been a project of mine for over 45 years. I am still a student and probably always will be.....there is still so much to learn...but applying it is difficult for many. Christianity is not just about "knowing" what Christ taught.....but in living it.
     
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  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    This is the reason I asked you twice, and you didn't answer.
    Why do you prefer the translators use "worship" instead of "do obeisance"?

    Don't get us wrong. Like I said... I understand the perspective you are trying to project. That is why I think it would be great if you answered my question. I think it's very important to this discussion.

    Thankfully @Deeje did all the hard work for me, in looking up those scriptures. :sweatsmile:
    Hey sis. Nice convention huh? Each year we come away saying, "This one was the best." Great new song too.

    It is just as Deeje said.
    "Proskyneo" can be translated as either "obeisance" or "worship" depending on the context. If it is rendered to God, it is "worship", but if it applies to any other personage, it is rightly translated "obeisance" in the NWT. It is an act of reverence based on respect for that person's position.

    I think it is reasonable that we consider the meaning of those words, and for translators, it is very important for them, if they aim to have a translation that is both accurate and easy to read and understand, to use words that according to the context, accurately apply.

    worship
    verb
    Love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol
    (religion) show devotion to (a deity)

    obeisance
    noun
    Bending the head or body or knee as a sign of reverence or submission or shame or greeting
    The act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to another person
    deferential respect - a gesture expressing deferential respect, such as a bow or curtsy

    reverence
    verb
    Regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed, exalted or be in awe of
    regard or treat with deep respect

    noun
    A feeling of profound respect for someone or something
    An act showing respect (especially a bow or curtsy)
    deep respect for someone or something


    In Matthew 4:9, 10, Jesus stated clearly to Satan, that God alone should be worshiped, in the sense of the word worship, as we understand it.
    Matthew 4:9 Interlinear: and saith to him, 'All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.'

    In Revelation 22:9, the angel said God is the one to worship.
    Revelation 22:9 Interlinear: and he saith to me, 'See -- not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

    So since we gave our explanation, and Deeje worked so hard in looking up all those scriptures you presented, I think it's only fair if you answered our questions. There are just two.
    Why do you prefer the translators use "worship" instead of "do obeisance"?

    I think Deeje asked a good question too. There is obviously a reason behind the question. I would be interested in what your response is.
    Look. She even asked politely. :)
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "Awesome" would not even come close! What preparation the brothers are giving us for the times ahead. Courage my brother!

    I couldn't sing the new song for crying. [​IMG] happy, grateful tears....what an amazing family we belong to! [​IMG]
     
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  12. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    ^ This! :thumbsup:
     
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  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Basic problem, here.
    god=mean almost anything
    god=can't mean Jesus.

    Somethings wrong.
     
  14. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    No one's denying the applicability of the word to Jesus. The question is whether it should be taken to literally mean God Almighty himself (which would produce many, many contradictions with scripture) or should it be taken in the same sense as when applied to angels, Moses, and the Jewish people (with no contradictions)?
     
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  15. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    There is no 'same sense', when referring to angels, false gods, or as a descriptor, 'as a god'.
    Those are all different.
    An angel isn't a person, for example.
    Hence, even if you say, angels are 'gods', explained by Elohim
    Genesis 1:26
    You then have to explain the nature of Jesus.
    :grinning:
     
  16. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Not as "a god" or a false god - angels were addressed as God Almighty himself (elohim, YWHW, etc). Moses was addressed as God Almighty himself (elohim). The Jewish people were referred to more generally as gods, plural, but it's the same word (elohim).
     
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I'm not getting the relevance, actually.
    That's very obscure.
     
    #237 Desert Snake, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  18. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    The relevance is that the term "God" is appropriately applied to others who are not God Almighty himself in scripture. These aren't false gods. These are God's agents, his mediators, his people who are to do his will. These are addressed as if God himself and as gods generally. This is a perfectly valid usage of the term which no one interprets literally in these cases.

    It is thus perfectly reasonable to interpret the term in this same manner when it is applied to Jesus - without introducing all kinds of logical contradictions into the scriptures as you would if you interpret the term in a literal sense.
     
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Actually Dagon is a false "god" who receives worship from people who think he should be worshiped as a god even though he is a figment of their imagination. Satan is a god, because he puts himself up there to be worshipped like Jehovah is worshipped.

    I have explained several times the meaning of "theos" in the Greek. It literally means a "a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities" (according to Strongs) and Jesus qualifies as a divine god-like one....but he is not the Almighty. He has never once asked to be worshipped, and he directs all worship, honor and glory to his Father.

    There is the one God, Yahweh (Jehovah) and one only-begotten "god" who is Jesus Christ. (John 1:18) But I have never seen the holy spirit called "God".....have you?

    That's how it works.
     
    #239 Deeje, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
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  20. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    Thank you Deeje for looking through all those verses. I think we can start the discussion at hand.

    I'll be using the NASB as it is translated from the original Greek, but if you feel that the passage is being biased towards my doctrine, I'll use another translation.

    Why do I make such a strong case on worship? Because as we all know, it forms an important aspect of how us, as humans, relate to God. It can take place in the form of singing, bowing down, paying tithes, giving glory, etc. The importance of the ten commandments is that we are not to worship anything as if the recipient is taking on the place of "God". Hence idolatry can take place if you worship an object (idol), material (money), or a human being.
    '"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth. ' Matthew 6:24
    'On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died. ' Acts 12:21-23


    So we can all agree that there is worship that is acceptable in God's eyes as long as it is done in respect, but it cannot be done as if we are worshiping a divine entity (which only belongs to Jehovah).

    I think in all instances where worship is mentioned, we need to look at the context and decide for ourselves whether it is merely 'obeisance' or 'worship', which God forbade to other entities. That's why I was insistent that we should look at the context for ourselves and not let the translators decide what was and wasn't worship.

    So Deeje to answer your question about the Magis 'worshiping' baby Jesus, we need to see what they thought of Jesus at the time.
    'Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him." ' Matthew 2:1-2

    Note that the magis thought of Jesus as the 'King of the Jews'. The Jewish people were well aware of the coming Messiah, but what they had in their minds was someone more like King David, a human being. Thus we can assume that the Magis simply thought of Jesus as a forthcoming King and not as a divine entity. The worship in this sense was simply paying homage, or giving respect, not the same degree of worship that Jehovah expects from us.

    This scenario differs very much in the next passage:
    'When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!" ' Matthew 14:32-33

    The context here is that Jesus was walking on water, and he demonstrated to his disciples that even nature was under his authority. After seeing this, they worshiped him as God's Son. Now was this simply paying homage, or were they worshiping his divinity? The arguments I've been hearing for justifying Jesus' worship is his sacrifice on the cross, but note that this is before his crucifixion. And Jesus is not directing the worship back to God, which should have been a violation of the ten commandments.

    Also read the following passages in Revelation:
    'Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." ' Revelation 5:11-12

    'And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, " holy , holy , holy is the Lord God , the almighty , who was and who is and who is to come ." And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." '
    Revelation 4:8-11

    'And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped. ' Revelation 5:13-14

    So we know that this worship described in Revelation 5:13-14 was not only to Yahweh, but also to Jesus as well. This honor and glory and blessing is being attributed to both Jesus (Revelation 5:11-12) and Yahweh (Revelation 4:8-11).

    The question is just how far must worship go to violate the commandment of "You shall only serve and worship the Lord?" We see that bowing down to angels is not acceptable in the Bible, nor is confessing divinity for another human being. Surely what we are seeing in Revelation is going past simple 'obeisance'. It is one thing to acknowledge someone's authority on Earth, it is another to have myriads of angels and elders giving you honor and glory.
     
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