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Featured Jesus is equal to God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by rrobs, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is God the Father.

    I believe that would be correct.

    I believe that is because essence in this case is not dependent on relationship.

    I believe that is only true if the thinking is wormy. Mine is fine.
     
  2. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    I think the word deity implies that he was a god, which, as you pointed out, the Bible never directly says. I think divinity would be a better description of what Jesus possessed as the son of God.

    I think it is interesting that there are only 2 people who were called sons of God by birth, Adam (Luk 3:38) and Jesus (47 different scriptutres). When God created Adam he was perfect. Adam had innocent blood. He also had free will and we all know what he did with that. As a result of his sin, his blood was no longer innocent and that blood was passed on to the rest of us. That is why we all die.

    Since sin, and death by sin, came by man it was necessary for a man to redeem us. Have you ever wondered why God didn't just come down right after Adam sinned and make things right again? God is a just God. He gave free will to man and, more importantly, he gave dominion over the earth to man (Gen 1:26). It is a huge mistake to think God has dominion over the earth. God freely gave it away to Adam. He told Adam how to make things work right, but Adam had his own ideas which he chose to follow.

    One of the major problems with Adam's sin was that he transferred the dominion God had given him to the devil. Later, the devil in turn offered that power to Jesus in the desert temptations. Satan is called the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). He's also called the Prince of the Power of the Air (Eph 2:2). That is why we live in a fallen world. The universe itself suffers because of Adam's sin (Rom 8:22). The only reason the world is not totally evil is because of people who believe in the light of God's word. Throughout history, there have been very few who really believed God, but no amount of darkness can extinguish light.

    Since God relinquished dominion to Adam, it would have violated God's character to just take that power back and fix Adam's mistake right then and there. He had to wait for another man to fix the problem. When God relinquished dominion to Adam, He no longer had it. But He had a brilliant plan. That plan is spoken of in John 1:1 where we see the logos. By willy-nilly substituting the word Jesus for Word in John 1:1 goes far in obscuring the brilliance of God's plan. Jesus was certainly the main character, the star, of the logos, but the logos is the logos. It is not Jesus.

    All God could do was leave detailed instructions (the logos) for some man to follow in order to redeem us from sin and death. That would be the Old Testament. Well, God had to wait some 6,000 years for a woman to say, "be it done unto me according to thy word." That of course, was the virgin birth and that is what makes Jesus special. We all inherited Adam's sinful blood. Jesus, just like Adam, started out with innocent blood. But here's where Jesus shined; he, like the rest of mankind, had free will and he could have easily accepted the devil's offer of dominion over the world. He could have lied, cheated, stole, or anything else the rest of us do not infrequently. But he didn't! Had Jesus sinned, then his blood would have been polluted and he would no longer have been the perfect lamb sacrifice, and we'd still be dead in trespasses and sin.

    But Jesus obeyed God to the letter, even to the most horrible death imaginable. It wasn't at all what he wanted to do, but he deferred his will to the will of God (Luk 22:42). He could have easily said, "You know what God? I don't think I want to go through with this. I think I'm going to go find Satan and take him up on his offer of dominion." The believing Jesus had is beyond anything we can imagine. I sure wouldn't have gone to the cross for a bunch of sinners and near-do-wells. But Jesus so loved even the most deviant of sinners that he obeyed so you and I can enjoy eternal life in paradise. Jesus regained dominion over the earth from Satan. We don't see it just yet, but when he appears the second time, there will be little doubt as to who is in charge.

    Making Jesus God denigrates his true accomplishment. If he had been God, everything he did would required little believing or effort. Would God doubt himself about getting raised from the dead? I don't think so. But for a man to believe that is really something. That took some real courage. Jesus saw people die during his lifetime, and he felt the same dread we all do when faced with death. His mind was made of steel though, and his belief in God was absolutely unshakable.

    And making Jesus God denigrates the logos, or God's plan to redeem mankind. It's the most incredible plot no human author could have ever conceived. Give God credit for coming up with the plan and Jesus for carrying it out to the letter, without sinning even once in his entire lifetime.

    The main goal of the devil now is to keep people away from the truth of God's word. He wants us to be ignorant. I believe that his success in doing so is largely due to the trinity. Making Jesus God pretty much obliterates the Bible story. There is no way someone can make sense out of the story if the two main characters are not properly understood and kept in their right place. That is true of any book ever written and God's word is no different. Once something is accepted as a "mystery" the floodgates of confusion are wide open. God never asked us to accept the trinity as a mystery. It's just not found anywhere in the Bible. It is a church doctrine. It is not Biblical. God wants us to know (Eph 1:18, et.al.), not just blindly accept things by faith.

    By the way, it is God in Christ (2 Cor 5:19) in us (Col 1:27). We are born again with incorruptible seed (1 Pet 1:23) which makes us as much a son of God as Jesus. In that sense we share in the same divine nature as God, but I'm certainly no deity.

    Jesus is our Lord, our redeemer, our life, our brother, our Saviour, our righteousness, and many other things. But one thing he is not is God.
     
    #102 rrobs, Jul 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  3. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    I noticed your moniker is "Jesus in me." Not to be pushy, but you may consider changing that to "Christ in me."

    Here's why;

    The word "Jesus" implies his suffering and humiliation. "Christ", on the other hand, implies his victory over sin and the devil. He was born as a man with the name Jesus (Matt 1:25). However, because of his perfect belief in God throughout his lifetime, God made him both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36).

    The power we have lies, not in the suffering of Jesus, but in his glorious victory over sin and death by his resurrection from the dead. The Bible is very precise in it's usage of the words Lord, Jesus, and Christ. It is incumbent upon us to keep those titles in their right places. Whenever you read "Christ Jesus" or "Christ" it is talking about glory. When you read "Jesus Christ" or "Jesus" it is speaking of his sufferings. Our redemption lies in his glory, not his suffering. Everybody dies. It's real easy to do. Just stick around for a while. What is truly glorious is being raised from the dead. I think it would be more appropriate for churches to have a picture of an empty tomb behind the altar than a cross. He's no longer hanging on the cross. He's sitting on the right hand of the father in power and glory. Christians should be more careful in aligning their thoughts with the Bible instead of tradition (Mark 7:13).

    More to the point: The Bible never says Jesus is in you. But it does absolutely say Christ is in you.

    Col 1:27,

    To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    God bless...
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    Oh look another Christian in bad disguise.

    You people are disgusting.

    Change your religion label.
     
  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the Word, and the Word was God, not “…a God”. That would be one God too many.

    God still has dominion over the earth just like He has dominion everywhere else. His will is not done (finished) upon the earth but He still has dominion over it. We do not have to inquire of Satan for the rains will come, the locusts to abate, or the seas to calm.

    Man was given dominion over the earth but that does not mean God gave up His dominion in the process:

    1. "Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and the earth; Yours is the dominion, O Lord, and You exalt Yourself as head over all," (1 Chr. 29:11).

    2. "The earth is the Lord's, and all it contains, the world, and those who dwell in it," (Ps. 24:1).

    3. " . . . These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come," (Eph. 1:19-21).

    I think it better to think of Adam as a steward of the earth. We are the earth’s caretaker. I’m not sure how anyone could reconcile 1 Chr 29:11, Ps 24:1, or Eph 1:19-21 if Satan’s is actually the one in charge.

    Adam, just like we, have dominion over the earth, but only to the extent and authority given by God. At no time did God abdicate His authority over the earth.

    Interesting... Where does scripture tell us Adam "transferred" dominion or stewardship to Satan? I can take a job in Macy’s shoe Department, but that wouldn't give me authority to transfer title to the store.

    Wait a sec...let's see what the bible has to say about the devil:

    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)​

    What part of Satan’s promise should Jesus have considered truthful?

    Only for those who do not choose God. We have free will and can choose who reigns over our lives...God or "...a god".

    Note he is also called the Prince of demons (Mat 9:34). In both instances he is referred to as “Prince” rather than King because there is only one King. Princes do not have the authority of a King.

    Certainly Ben-Hadad and his advisors thought the same:

    “Their gods are gods of the hills. That is why they were too strong for us. But if we fight them on the plains, surely we will be stronger than they.” 1Kings 20:23​

    But we all know how that turned out:

    “This is what the Lord says: ‘Because the Arameans think the Lord is a god of the hills and not a god of the valleys, I will deliver this vast army into your hands, and you will know that I am the Lord.’” (1Kings 20:28)
    Once again we see God has not abdicated His dominion.

    I’m not sure which bible you are using. Which version says “…the logos is the logos, not Jesus”?

    Where does the bible say that?

    Keeping the Law redeems you from sin. It certainly wouldn't redeem anyone else. If I keep the Law regarding adultery, and thus avoid punishment under the Law, have I also redeemed my son from adultery? My grandson??

    Mankind was under condemnation by God. Following a bunch of rules and regulations does not save a man under condemnation. Think of the prisoner in a prison. There are rules to follow, but obeying the rules does not relieve him of his death sentence.

    There were certain things the Law simply could not do. For example, it could not acquit sinful flesh and all flesh was under condemnation. In fact, the Law was brought in so that our sins might increase (Romans 5:20). When fleshly man attempted to follow the law, it brought not redemption but wrath (Romans 4:15) and it was not wrath but redemption that we needed.

    We are saved through Christ. It is he that brings justification and sanctification to the sinner. Those in Christ are saved because he is the son of God and not merely a son of man (see Romans 5). You make it appear as if the gift is the same as the trespass. Scripture is clear that it is not. The gift is much greater than the trespass so that all who call upon the Lord can be saved.

    But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. (Romans 5: 15-16)​

    You cannot compare the one sin of Adam against the many sins of mankind, yet Christ, who followed the Law acquits all that place faith in him.

    How can he do that if he is simply a "son of man"? If that's all he is then God can rightly say: "Jesus followed the law and saved himself. So can you!"


    Actually, making Jesus anything less than God denigrates him and his sacrifice on the cross. It simply means Jesus saved himself from condemnation (by not sinning) but it doesn't mean he saved anyone else. The rest of us would be "on our own".

    Let's not forget Jesus' dual nature. He is God, and he is man.

    "The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father’s only Son. (John 1:14)

    Exactly right! Jesus was both. :)

    Making Jesus anything less than God denigrates the gift and places us all back under sin. Under your Christology, I would have to hope I didn't sin so I could save myself...just like Jesus did.

    I think mankind needed a lot more than one guy not to sin. The Law states an eye for an eye, not an eye for millions of eyes. So one could save their soul by keeping the Law, but I don't see them saving anyone else's. Remember, due to the Law we are under many sins, not just Adam's.

    You've already miscast the Trinity as Modalism and miscasting other things will not bring us closer to God. If we cannot trust your information on the small, how do we trust the large?

    I'm not sure why you believe God is no mystery. I've said this on the forum before. It would be easier for an amoeba to understand Schedule D, line 18 of my 1040 tax return than it would be for man to understand God.

    If there is no mystery in the God you worship than I humbly submit you may not be worshiping the Almighty but a god in your own image. As the Greeks and Romans will tell you, they were never much of a mystery at all.
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe He is not a god but The God. The God is also covered under the terms deity and divinity.

    I believe it is direct but just not the same words that you used.

    I believe a deity can be a divinity and is in Jesus but his divinity is not His only attribute as God.

    I believe that is because both are creations of God and sons although I bet current thinking is that Adam didn't have a father and I would differ. Jesus was a son of His mother as we count biological relationships.

    I believe I know of no scripture that says so. Adam sinned. Jesus did not.

    I believe repeating a falsehood does not make it true.
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is incorrect. Jesus means Savior which is very important since that is what He came to be.

    I believe Christ has national implications (Israel) but Jesus is personal to me.

    I see that nowhere in scripture.

    I believe that is simply an authors preference and either would have worked. The fact is that Gentiles were not looking for a Christ but definitely needed a savior.
     
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