Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[Trailblazer]

Strawman. That’s not what I think.

Okay.

I presented a different opinion to yours, by someone who was also of the Baha’i Faith. This is what research entails.
And I have been doing some research, and here’s what I have found; it is not the Truth. This is what I think, and you say I am free to do so.

If you look at what people who oppose the Baha'i Faith say about it you are not going to find the Truth. The Best way to study any religion is to read about it from the Source and that would be the Baha'i Writings. What do you think I am going to find out about Christianity by reading about it on a skeptics website? No, I go to the Bible because that is the Source.

Do you see me presenting information about Christianity that did not come from the Bible or discussing Christianity with Christians based upon anti-Christian websites? No, I look at what Christians believe, Christians who are still Christians, not ex-Christians. It is fair and useful for me to go to websites posted by Christians to see what they believe but it is not fair or useful for me to go on a website posted by people who oppose Christianity and then say I found out the Truth about Christianity! Why would people who oppose Christianity be telling the Truth about Christianity? Why would people who oppose the Baha'i Faith be telling the Truth about Baha'i Faith?

But at the end of the day all that matters is if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be or not, because the Baha'i Faith is based upon His claims, so we need to know whether those claims are backed up with evidence. What other people think does not matter, as we have to determine that for ourselves because it is our salvation that is on the line.

When people ask me about the evidence for Baha'ullah I just point them to this post that has the claims and the websites they can go to to check the claims -- all in one post.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

Will the evidence for the above be coming along shortly?

What evidence do you want, about the provisional translation? I know I read where Cole was all in a huff about it but that was some time ago, so I'd have to do some digging.

Meanwhile, here is the Tablet of the Maiden (provisional translation):
Tablet of the Maiden

And here is the commentary on the translation from the UHJ and Cole's response to the commentary\:
Tablet of the Maiden

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said:
It tells me what I already know, that Baha’u’llah did not spend His time talking about the Messengers of past religions.
In fact, He wrote that it was a grave mistake and a grievous transgression to even mention the past.

Really? Better be careful, Tb - they'll excommunicate you!

For what? For explaining what Baha'u'llah wrote? I am doing what I am supposed to be doing, it's called teaching, so I am not going to get in trouble for that!

If you want to know why Bahais get excommunicated I suggest you get accurate information by reading about it instead of believing what anti-Baha'is tell you, which distorts the facts.

In the Baha'i Faith, but there are what we call Covenant-breakers who are removed from membership, and for a good reason: Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia.

B. is God
God is B.
God is God
B. is God's manifestation.
=
NON-sense.

It makes perfect sense to me, but that is because I have read Gleanings over five times cover to cover so I understand Baha'i theology, mainly who God is and what a Manifestation of God is and how they are related to each other..

BTW, that was Baha'u'llah quoting from from the Qur'an, He does that a lot because he was born and raised as a Muslim.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why are you assuming (falsely) that I believe it?

I was not assuming, I just asked a question.

And I did not say that it did. You are being extraordinarily defensive, Tb. Calm down.

Maybe, but that is because I have had so much experience with people attacking the Baha'i Faith, not much on this forum, but before I came here. On the forum group I used to post on before I came here in December 2017, Baha'is were not even allowed to post on Christian forums. I finally had to start my own forum just so I could post to Christians. And the atheist forum I used to post on had the Baha'is in quarantine, and we were limited to one thread, as if were a disease. I was the only Baha'i who put up with that and then I finally left and came here. It is another world here, where the mods treat people equally and fairly.

 

[samtonga43]

If course there is an IF, and there is also an IF as to whether God sent Jesus, unless you think it is a FACT.

You got it at last. Perhaps now you will refrain from using the word ‘prove’.

 

[samtonga43]

I was not assuming, I just asked a question.

Here is your question:
“So you believe all that about the Baha’i Faith just Cole came to believe it before he dropped out?”
Can’t you see that the question itself is an assumption? A non-assumptive question would look like:
“Do you believe all that about the Baha’i Faith just Cole came to believe it before he dropped out?” Do you understand?

Maybe, but that is because I have had so much experience with people attacking the Baha'i Faith, not much on this forum, but before I came here. On the forum group I used to post on before I came here in December 2017, Baha'is were not even allowed to post on Christian forums. I finally had to start my own forum just so I could post to Christians. And the atheist forum I used to post on had the Baha'is in quarantine, and we were limited to one thread, as if were a disease. I was the only Baha'i who put up with that and then I finally left and came here. It is another world here, where the mods treat people equally and fairly.

Strange. What were the reasons for Christian forums not allowing you to post? What is there to be scared of? Another question; why was it so important to you to post to Christians?

 

[samtonga43]

For what? For explaining what Baha'u'llah wrote? I am doing what I am supposed to be doing, it's called teaching, so I am not going to get in trouble for that!

No, not for explaining what B. wrote; for the grievous transgression of “mentioning the past”.

If you want to know why Bahais get excommunicated I suggest you get accurate information by reading about it instead of believing what anti-Baha'is tell you, which distorts the facts.

Why do you persist in assuming that I believe what anti-Baha'is tell me?
Would it be possible for you to tell me, in your own (21st Century) words, the reasons for excommunication?

It makes perfect sense to me, but that is because I have read Gleanings over five times cover to cover so I understand Baha'i theology, mainly who God is and what a Manifestation of God is and how they are related to each other..

Good for you. However, I have to tell you that the aim of teaching (which you say you are doing), is to communicate in a way that makes sense to others.

BTW, that was Baha'u'llah quoting from from the Qur'an, He does that a lot because he was born and raised as a Muslim.

Yes, and it shows.

 

[Trailblazer]

You got it at last. Perhaps now you will refrain from using the word ‘prove’.

Within what context did I ever say 'prove'?

 

[Trailblazer]

Here is your question:
“So you believe all that about the Baha’i Faith just Cole came to believe it before he dropped out?”
Can’t you see that the question itself is an assumption? A non-assumptive question would look like:
“Do you believe all that about the Baha’i Faith just Cole came to believe it before he dropped out?” Do you understand?

It was a question, not an assumption. You cannot call it an assumption unless you are a mind-reader and know I assumed something. I thought you might believe that and you later indicated I was right.

Strange. What were the reasons for Christian forums not allowing you to post? What is there to be scared of? Another question; why was it so important to you to post to Christians?

That is a question only those Christians could answer. However, they only started locking me out when I posted my beliefs which were contrary to theirs, as most Christians don't like that.

Once I get a bee in my bonnet I want to do what I set out to do. I wanted to learn more about Christianity and have discussions with Christians about my beliefs. Sorry to say that most of them were not up for a real debate, but there was one Trinitarian Christian I debated with for many years and we became friends. I got to know him because he was booted off a progressive Christian forum for being too fundamentalist so I sent him an e-mail and invited him to my forum. That was on October 2014.

We talked about his beliefs and my beliefs so he knows what Baha'is believe and all about Baha'u'llah. We are still friends. After I left those forums I told him about this forum and he also left those forums and came here, after I told him about this forum. Now he is an active poster here, under another name.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, not for explaining what B. wrote; for the grievous transgression of “mentioning the past”.

Baha'u'llah did nit say it was a grievous transgression for ME to mention the past, He said it was a grievous transgression for HIM to mention that past. However, in other passages He admonished us to disregard some the conflicting tales and traditions of older religions:

“Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175

Why do you persist in assuming that I believe what anti-Baha'is tell me?
Would it be possible for you to tell me, in your own (21st Century) words, the reasons for excommunication?

Other than breaking the Covenant of Baha’u’llah, I don’t know if any reasons why a Baha’i would be excommunicated. Below is an excerpt from a Wikipedia article that explains what a Covenantt-breaker is, in 21st century English.

Definition

Covenant-breaking does not refer to attacks from non-Bahá'ís or former Baha'is. Rather, it is in reference to internal campaigns of opposition where the Covenant-breaker is seen as challenging the unity of the Bahá'í Faith, causing internal division, or by claiming or supporting an alternate succession of authority or administrative structure. The central purpose of the covenant is to prevent schism and dissension.[1] In a letter to an individual dated 23 March 1975, the Universal House of Justice wrote:

When a person declares his acceptance of Bahá'u'lláh as a Manifestation of God he becomes a party to the Covenant and accepts the totality of His Revelation. If he then turns round and attacks Bahá'u'lláh or the Central Institution of the Faith he violates the Covenant. If this happens every effort is made to help that person to see the illogicality and error of his actions, but if he persists he must, in accordance with the instructions of Bahá'u'lláh Himself, be shunned as a Covenant-breaker.

Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia

Good for you. However, I have to tell you that the aim of teaching (which you say you are doing), is to communicate in a way that makes sense to others.

I do the best I can and if people do not understand what I am saying then they can ask me to clarify it or explain it further, as you do.

 

[samtonga43]

Within what context did I ever say 'prove'?

Within a spiritual context.

 

[samtonga43]

It was a question, not an assumption. You cannot call it an assumption unless you are a mind-reader and know I assumed something. I thought you might believe that and you later indicated I was right.

“So you believe all that about the Baha’i Faith just Cole came to believe it before he dropped out?” The word ‘so’ indicates that you have read what I said and assumed that this is what I believe. But your assumption is false.

That is a question only those Christians could answer. However, they only started locking me out when I posted my beliefs which were contrary to theirs, as most Christians don't like that.

I disagree with the ‘most’. In my experience most Christians enjoy interaction with people who believe differently, unless they are of the "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" variety. Did you use your own words on that forum?

Once I get a bee in my bonnet I want to do what I set out to do. I wanted to learn more about Christianity and have discussions with Christians about my beliefs.

What about their beliefs?

We talked about his beliefs and my beliefs so he knows what Baha'is believe and all about Baha'u'llah. We are still friends. After I left those forums I told him about this forum and he also left those forums and came here, after I told him about this forum. Now he is an active poster here, under another name.

Yes, I kind of understand why a Christian fundamentalist would be unwelcome on any kind of Christian forum other than a fundamentalist one. Tell me, are there fundamentalist Baha’is?

 

[samtonga43]

Baha'u'llah did nit say it was a grievous transgression for ME to mention the past, He said it was a grievous transgression for HIM to mention that past. However, in other passages He admonished us to disregard some the conflicting tales and traditions of older religions:

Really? How can you justify this, Tb?

Covenant-breaking does not refer to attacks from non-Bahá'ís or former Baha'is. Rather, it is in reference to internal campaigns of opposition where the Covenant-breaker is seen as challenging the unity of the Bahá'í Faith, causing internal division, or by claiming or supporting an alternate succession of authority or administrative structure. The central purpose of the covenant is to prevent schism and dissension.[1] In a letter to an individual dated 23 March 1975, the Universal House of Justice wrote:
When a person declares his acceptance of Bahá'u'lláh as a Manifestation of God he becomes a party to the Covenant and accepts the totality of His Revelation. If he then turns round and attacks Bahá'u'lláh or the Central Institution of the Faith he violates the Covenant. If this happens every effort is made to help that person to see the illogicality and error of his actions, but if he persists he must, in accordance with the instructions of Bahá'u'lláh Himself, be shunned as a Covenant-breaker.
Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia

Currently, the Universal House of Justice has the sole authority to declare a person a Covenant-breaker, and once identified, all Baháʼís are expected to shun them, even if they are family members. According to 'Abdu'l Baha Covenant-breaking is a contagious disease. The Baháʼí writings forbid association with Covenant-breakers and Baháʼís are urged to avoid their literature.
Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia
This is cultish behaviour
November 2020 – Baha'i Cult (backup of bahaism.blogspot.com)

I do the best I can and if people do not understand what I am saying then they can ask me to clarify it or explain it further, as you do.

When I ask you to explain in your own words, what usually comes back is a C/P. That's not teaching.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yup. The presence of the Creator of the Universe - known as three realms.
The first, second and third heavens.

Since Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, you better get with it, lest you remain in Hell (Hades).

Haaaa...

The good ol' "believe, or else!!!".
Great argument you got there. Really convincing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Within a spiritual context.

What does that mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

“So you believe all that about the Baha’i Faith just Cole came to believe it before he dropped out?” The word ‘so’ indicates that you have read what I said and assumed that this is what I believe. But your assumption is false.

I thought that maybe you believed it, which is why I asked, in order to find out it you did. If I had assumed I would not have asked, I would just assume I know.
So you don't believe everything that Cole said, but you believe some of it?

I disagree with the ‘most’. In my experience most Christians enjoy interaction with people who believe differently, unless they are of the "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" variety. Did you use your own words on that forum?

The Christians on those forums were if the "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" kind. They were not like many of the Christians on this forum who enjoy interaction with people who believe differently than they do, which is why they are on a forum with people of many different religious beliefs and non-beliefs. The Christians on the forums I was posting on only wanted to talk to other Christians.
Yes, I did use my own words.

What about their beliefs?

I was discussing their beliefs and my beliefs. That is what people do when they have a discussion.

Yes, I kind of understand why a Christian fundamentalist would be unwelcome on any kind of Christian forum other than a fundamentalist one. Tell me, are there fundamentalist Baha’is?

No, there are no fundamentalist Baha'is, there are just Baha'is. Some might be more liberal and some more conservative in their views but we all have the same beliefs and we are a unified group.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? How can you justify this, Tb?

Why would I have to justify what Baha'u'llah wrote? Do you have to justify what Jesus said in the Gospels?

Currently, the Universal House of Justice has the sole authority to declare a person a Covenant-breaker, and once identified, all Baháʼís are expected to shun them, even if they are family members. According to 'Abdu'l Baha Covenant-breaking is a contagious disease. The Baháʼí writings forbid association with Covenant-breakers and Baháʼís are urged to avoid their literature.
Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia
This is cultish behaviour
November 2020 – Baha'i Cult (backup of bahaism.blogspot.com)

You are free to believe whatever you want, but since you do not even know what the Covenant IS and why it is so important, you are speaking from ignorance, and then you post another anti-Baha'i website to try to back up your views. Cultish, lol If CBs were not ousted the Baha'i Faith would have thousands of sects by now, just like Christianity. There is only one Baha'i Faith, the one Baha'u'llah set up, and He made provisions for the UHJ in His writings, so anyone who tries to challenge their authority is ousted. It's that simple.

The Covenant in the Bahá’í Faith is the spiritual contract binding God and humanity. The Bahá’í Faith recognizes two covenants: first, the greater covenant, between God, represented by the Manifestation of God, on the one hand, and humanity on the other, in which God promises to continue to send guidance to humankind, while humanity, on its part, promises to obey and follow these teachings when they come. Part of this greater covenant is the obligation which each Manifestation of God places upon his followers to accept the next Manifestation. Second, the lesser covenant, which obliges individual Bahá’ís to accept the leadership of Bahá’u’lláh's appointed successors and the administrative institutions of the Faith. Firmness in the covenant is one of the chief Bahá’í religious virtues and includes not just acceptance of the legitimacy of the Bahá’í institutions but much more general attitudes of loyalty and whole-hearted commitment to the Bahá’í Faith and Bahá’í community. Challenging the authority of the center of the Bahá’í Faith is the most serious spiritual offense that a Bahá’í can commit. It is called Covenant Breaking and is considered to be a spiritual disease and is punished by expulsion from the community.

Read more: Covenant - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

When I ask you to explain in your own words, what usually comes back is a C/P. That's not teaching.

I do respond in my own words, but I am not going to type everything I posted above in my own words.

 

[samtonga43]

What does that mean?

I don’t know how to answer you, Tb. I can’t believe that you really do not know what a ‘spiritual context’ is.

 

[samtonga43]

I thought that maybe you believed it, which is why I asked, in order to find out it you did. If I had assumed I would not have asked, I would just assume I know.

In that case, you should have begun with “Do you…” rather than ‘So…’

So you don't believe everything that Cole said, but you believe some of it?

‘So’ is a conjunction meaning ‘therefore’. Now, what led to you conclude that I “don't believe everything that Cole said, but I believe some of it”?

The Christians on the forums I was posting on only wanted to talk to other Christians.

Well, I suppose they have the right to run their forum the way they want to...

I was discussing their beliefs and my beliefs. That is what people do when they have a discussion.

Of course. Did you not notice that I was responding to your words here..
“Once I get a bee in my bonnet I want to do what I set out to do. I wanted to learn more about Christianity and have discussions with Christians about my beliefs”. (My emphasis)

No, there are no fundamentalist Baha'is, there are just Baha'is. Some might be more liberal and some more conservative in their views but we all have the same beliefs and we are a unified group.

You all believe exactly the same? Even though some adherents are liberal and some are conservative? Isn’t this a contradiction? Oh, and what do you mean by ‘unified’ in this context?

 

[samtonga43]

Why would I have to justify what Baha'u'llah wrote? Do you have to justify what Jesus said in the Gospels? He admonished us to disregard some the conflicting tales and traditions of older religions:

But you don’t disregard them, do you? And you are right not to. As Scripture says “Let us reason together”.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but since you do not even know what the Covenant IS and why it is so important, you are speaking from ignorance.

But I DO know what the Covenant IS. There is another false assumption. I also know why you believe it is so important.

and then you post another anti-Baha'i website to try to back up your views.

I am simply doing some research, Tb. Why does this bother you so much? Are you threatened by a different point of view?

Cultish, lol If CBs were not ousted the Baha'i Faith would have thousands of sects by now, just like Christianity. There is only one Baha'i Faith, the one Baha'u'llah set up, and He made provisions for the UHJ in His writings, so anyone who tries to challenge their authority is ousted. It's that simple.

LOL! Keep going, Tb. You are answering many of my questions and confirming some of my suspicions without even realizing it.

I do respond in my own words, but I am not going to type everything I posted above in my own words.

If you truly understand someone else’s words, you ought to be able to translate that understanding in your own words to those you are ‘teaching’. Anyone can C/P screeds of material; but it is not teaching.