Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[samtonga43]

Yes, I have but you do not listen very well.

A very obvious excuse.

Sorry, but until you agree to a polite conversation and actually engage in one can you make any demands. As it is I will not dig through old posts for you. This also was told and explained to you many times. Like I said early, you have not been listening very well. And I really really doubt if you have a firm grasp of hermeneutics at all.

That last sentence is amusing in a sense that only my colleagues will appreciate.

You will not 'dig up' old posts because
there are none which provide the evidence you have been asked for.

Why is it that the times I am willing to support my claims with evidence that you ignore those posts? The obvious ones you only bring up long after the point and then make unreasonable demands that you know will not be met and pretend that you have made a point.

You say that I ignore posts in which you have provided evidence for your claims. Please point out those posts, if you are able to do so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A very obvious excuse.

That last sentence is amusing in a sense that only my colleagues will appreciate.

You will not 'dig up' old posts because
there are none which provide the evidence you have been asked for.


You say that I ignore posts in which you have provided evidence for your claims. Please point out those posts, if you are able to do so.

LOL! Learn how to listen properly. Learn how to debate properly. I am beginning to have serious doubts since all you can do is troll when threatened.

And yes, your posts tell everyone that you are terribly threatened here. Why? I don't know.

By the way, I have demonstrated that I do admit when I am shown to be wrong. You . . . not so much. That should not threaten you.

 

[samtonga43]

LOL! Learn how to listen properly. Learn how to debate properly. I am beginning to have serious doubts since all you can do is troll when threatened.

Are you really under the impression that you, SZ, know how to debate properly? Are you also under the impression that what is going on in this thread is a debate? If so, you are deluding yourself.

And yes, your posts tell everyone that you are terribly threatened here. Why? I don't know.

Let’s be rational, SZ… What is there to be “terribly threatened" about?”

You?
Your pseudo arguments?
Your extensive knowledge?
Your vibrant personality?
Your IQ? Your EQ?



I just had a thought (amazing, I know!) I wonder if this constant harping on how I feel threatened could be SZ’s ego defense mechanism kicking in?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are you really under the impression that you, SZ, know how to debate properly? Are you also under the impression that what is going on in this thread is a debate? If so, you are deluding yourself.



Let’s be rational, SZ… What is there to be “terribly threatened" about?”

You?
Your pseudo arguments?
Your extensive knowledge?
Your vibrant personality?
Your IQ? Your EQ?



I just had a thought (amazing, I know!) I wonder if this constant harping on how I feel threatened could be SZ’s ego defense mechanism kicking in?

Frankly I do not know why you appear to be so scared of me. It does look like you know that you would lose a serious debate. When people do that they tend to only make false claims that they cannot support and write posts that are only rude trolling.

I know that I can debate properly . I seriously doubt if you can.

Do you think that you can be polite and debate properly? Remember, you are not worth it to me to dig up your past errors that you will almost certainly just deny. You keep demanding that I do that when I have explained to you countless times why I will not do so. I only mention them because you continue to persist in the same behavior of false accusation and running away.

 

[Trailblazer]

This paragraph I do not understand, Tb. I wonder if you can explain it in your own words...?

Trailblazer said: The Son, who is in eternal relation to the Father and Spirit, did not have to humble himself and choose to assume a human nature because the Son of God had BOTH a human nature and a divine nature.

It means that God conferred upon Jesus a spiritual nature that ordinary humans do not possess. God assigned a twofold nature upon Jesus, the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual nature, which is born of the substance of God Himself.

Jesus got His spiritual nature from God before He was born into this world because Jesus existed in the spiritual world with God before he was born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Obviously, Jesus got His human nature after he was born from the womb of Mary.

It is the spiritual nature from which Jesus declares that He is the Voice of God, but from His human mature he declares that He is just a human like the rest of us.

 

[samtonga43]

Frankly I do not know why you appear to be so scared of me.

I know why it appears to YOU that I am “so scared of you”, SZ. Listen and learn: your fragile ego would love me to be afraid of you (crazy, I know!) and so you have talked yourself into this crazy notion. It makes you feel better about yourself, believing that someone on the internet is scared of you. It also appears (to you alone) that I know I would lose a serious debate. Why? Your ego again (+ projection).
You are very transparent, SZ.

I know that I can debate properly.

Any evidence that you can debate ‘properly? Of course not.

I seriously doubt if you can.

Really? Well that bothers me a great deal, SZ! I won't get a wink of sleep tonight, thinking of these doubts. Woe is me!!

Do you think that you can be polite and debate properly? Remember, you are not worth it to me to dig up your past errors that you will almost certainly just deny.

This is the same excuse you have used previously. You have no evidence of 'past errors'. And you know it.

You keep demanding that I do that when I have explained to you countless times why I will not do so. I only mention them because you continue to persist in the same behavior of false accusation and running away

I have never ‘demanded’. And I have told you this before, several times (memory again?). Will any evidence that I have ‘demanded’ something be forthcoming? OR could it be that this is yet another excuse for your pathetic lack of evidence. Let’s wait and see...

You accuse me of "False accusations" and "Running away".
Now, unless you have evidence, those are false accusations.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know why it appears to YOU that I am “so scared of you”, SZ. Listen and learn: your fragile ego would love me to be afraid of you (crazy, I know!) and so you have talked yourself into this crazy notion. It makes you feel better about yourself, believing that someone on the internet is scared of you. It also appears (to you alone) that I know I would lose a serious debate. Why? Your ego again (+ projection).
You are very transparent, SZ.


Any evidence that you can debate ‘properly? Of course not.


Really? Well that bothers me a great deal, SZ! I won't get a wink of sleep tonight, thinking of these doubts. Woe is me!!


This is the same excuse you have used previously. You have no evidence of 'past errors'. And you know it.


I have never ‘demanded’. And I have told you this before, several times (memory again?). Will any evidence that I have ‘demanded’ something be forthcoming? OR could it be that this is yet another excuse for your pathetic lack of evidence. Let’s wait and see...

You accuse me of "False accusations" and "Running away".
Now, unless you have evidence, those are false accusations.

Still trolling I see.

 

[samtonga43]

Still trolling I see.

LOL! Yes this is a very convenient excuse, is it not?
Asking SZ for evidence of any kind = trolling.

 

[samtonga43]

It means that God conferred upon Jesus a spiritual nature that ordinary humans do not possess.

You don’t possess a spiritual nature?

God assigned a twofold nature upon Jesus, the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual nature, which is born of the substance of God Himself.

No. The substance of God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Jesus got His spiritual nature from God before He was born into this world because Jesus existed in the spiritual world with God before he was born into this world.

No. Jesus the Son is the second Person in the Godhead. ‘With’ is entirely the wrong word to use. Jesus was and is – God.

Obviously, Jesus got His human nature after he was born from the womb of Mary.
It is the spiritual nature from which Jesus declares that He is the Voice of God, but from His human mature he declares that He is just a human like the rest of us.

He is not ‘the voice' of God. He IS God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL! Yes this is a very convenient excuse, is it not?
Asking SZ for evidence of any kind = trolling.

When you learn how to discuss things then you can make demands. You memory has been very deficient.. This has been explained to you and you have been told where the evidence is. Did you forget that too?

 

[Trailblazer]

You don’t possess a spiritual nature? .

Yes, all humans possess a spiritual nature, but it is not the same as the spiritual nature Jesus possessed since Jesus was a Manifestation of God. Ordinary humans can strive to be like Jesus but we can never perfectly reflect the Attributes of God, as Jesus did.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

No. The substance of God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. .

No, Jesus was made of the substance of God, but God is not made of the substance of Jesus, and God is not made of the substance of the Holy Spirit, since the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that emanates from God.

No. Jesus the Son is the second Person in the Godhead. ‘With’ is entirely the wrong word to use. Jesus was and is – God. .

Jesus was not God and never claimed to be God. That is a false Christian doctrine that men made up at the Council of Nicaea and then Christians like you unquestionably believed it ever since.

“It has long been generally believed that Jesus Christ was a unique incarnation of God such as had never before appeared in religious history and would never appear again. This tenet made the acceptance of any later Prophet impossible to a Christian. Yet there is nothing in Christ’s own statements, as recorded in the Gospel, to support this view, and it was not generally held during His lifetime….

Many of these false interpretations involve repudiation of the Word of God in favor of the word of man. This impious act is so craftily performed, with such an air of humility, that it might escape the notice of the most sincere and devout of worshippers. Probably few churchgoers realize today that the Gospel of Christ as known to the few in the pulpit is wholly different from the Gospel which Christ preached in Galilee as recorded in the Bible……

Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”

From: Christ and Baha'u'llah, pp. 25-30

He is not ‘the voice' of God. He IS God.

Dream on. Jesus was a Manifestation of God and Jesus was God only in the sense that He reflected God’s Attributes, but God is MORE than what can EVER be attributed to Him.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 54

 

[samtonga43]

When you learn how to discuss things then you can make demands.

You and I and everyone reading this know that I have never made demands. Do you really think that YOUR posts are examples of 'how to discuss things'? Think again.

You memory has been very deficient.. This has been explained to you and you have been told where the evidence is. Did you forget that too?

I have been told that the evidence is in this thread, but you refuse to say where and when.

And we all know why.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You and I and everyone reading this know that I have never made demands. Do you really think that YOUR posts are examples of 'how to discuss things'? Think again.



I have been told that the evidence is in this thread, but you refuse to say where and when.

And we all know why.

Sure you have. You just don't call them demands after the fact.

By the way, the evidence is still in the thread if you want to see it. I am not going to search through it for you. I have just offered a solution for future posts. You seem to be unable to get over your past failures. You can even pretend that they never happened. All you need to do is to start a polite conversation.

 

[samtonga43]

Dream on.

This kind of statement weakens your argument.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God and Jesus was God only in the sense that He reflected God’s Attributes, but God is MORE than what can EVER be attributed to Him.

God is certainly more than either you or Baha’u’llah can attribute to Him.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....” Gleanings From the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 54

?? ‘verily’ ‘speaketh’ ‘attacheth’ ??.
We are living in the 21st Century, Tb.
No modern translations yet?

Jesus expressed many times the truth that He is one of the three Persons of the Godhead. Do you think there may be a reason why He did not say the words “I am God”? Spiritual Truths are very often conveyed indirectly, and sensed by the soul. Have you never found this to be so?

 

[samtonga43]

Sure you have. You just don't call them demands after the fact.

Do you have evidence of a demand I have made?

By the way, the evidence is still in the thread if you want to see it. I am not going to search through it for you.

You made the claim. You produce the evidence. That's the way it works.

I have just offered a solution for future posts. You seem to be unable to get over your past failures. You can even pretend that they never happened. All you need to do is to start a polite conversation.

Do you have evidence of my 'past failures'?

 

[Trailblazer]

This kind of statement weakens your argument.

I have no argument, I just have beliefs.

God is certainly more than either you or Baha’u’llah can attribute to Him.

He certainly is.

?? ‘verily’ ‘speaketh’ ‘attacheth’ ??.
We are living in the 21st Century, Tb.
No modern translations yet?

That is a red herring if I have ever seen one.

Jesus expressed many times the truth that He is one of the three Persons of the Godhead.

Talk is cheap. Please provide the verses where Jesus says He is part of a "Godhead."

Do you think there may be a reason why He did not say the words “I am God”?

Yes, because Jesus knew He was NOT God. Only God is God.

Spiritual Truths are very often conveyed indirectly, and sensed by the soul. Have you never found this to be so?

What I might 'sense' in my soul is not reliable because people are prone to error.
As such, all I care about is what is written in the scriptures.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you have evidence of a demand I have made?


You made the claim. You produce the evidence. That's the way it works.


Do you have evidence of my 'past failures'?

Until you enter into a polite conversation I will simply show you where you made demands. You are making a demand here. But you probably don't see it.

When you are tired of failing I will gladly have a proper discussion with you.

 

[samtonga43]

I have no argument, I just have beliefs.

Yes, I’m sorry. I must have been channelling SZ there. (j/k)

That is a red herring if I have ever seen one.

Not at all. Don’t you and your fellow Baha’is wish to communicate to modern people in ‘the language of the market place’, as Jesus did?

Talk is cheap. Please provide the verses where Jesus says He is part of a "Godhead."

Please tell me that you are not asking for those exact words, in that exact order, Tb. You are obviously a literalist, but now you’re going too far.

Yes, because Jesus knew He was NOT God. Only God is God.

No, this is not the reason he did not say the exact words “I am God”. Maybe go a bit deeper?

What I might 'sense' in my soul is not reliable because people are prone to error.
As such, all I care about is what is written in the scriptures.

You believe that the Scriptures are inerrant?
The sense given to your soul is given by the Holy Spirit. He IS reliable.

 

[samtonga43]

Until you enter into a polite conversation I will simply show you where you made demands. You are making a demand here. But you probably don't see it.
When you are tired of failing I will gladly have a proper discussion with you.

LOL! two questions and a fact doth not demands make.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not at all. Don’t you and your fellow Baha’is wish to communicate to modern people in ‘the language of the market place’, as Jesus did?

We are no longer living in the days of Jesus, this is a new Day. That is not necessary to have a modern translation because those with spiritual propensities can understand what Baha’u’llah wrote translated into Old English. After all, we understood the Bible KJV before we had modern translations.

Please tell me that you are not asking for those exact words, in that exact order, Tb. You are obviously a literalist, but now you’re going too far.

I am asking for any verse where Jesus claimed to be God. Jesus saying He was one with God or that the Father was in Him won’t do because those do not mean that Jesus is God and those verses are not Jesus saying I am God.

No, this is not the reason he did not say the exact words “I am God”. Maybe go a bit deeper?

Jesus did not say “I am God” because He is not God. Why can’t you face reality, it was the men at the Council of Nicaea that decided to make Jesus into God, and Jesus would have been appalled. You cannot make this work and still believe in the Bible.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

You believe that the Scriptures are inerrant?
The sense given to your soul is given by the Holy Spirit. He IS reliable.

The Holy Spirit was given to Jesus and Baha’u’llah and we get it from them. We are guided by the Holy Spirit but it does not "live inside" of the human body, it interacts with our soul.

INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

I now assure thee, O servant of God, that, if thy mind become empty and pure from every mention and thought and thy heart attracted wholly to the Kingdom of God, forget all else besides God and come in communion with the Spirit of God, then the Holy Spirit will assist thee with a power which will enable thee to penetrate all things, and a Dazzling Spark which enlightens all sides, a Brilliant Flame in the zenith of the heavens, will teach thee that which thou dost not know of the facts of the universe and of the divine doctrine. Verily, I say unto thee, every soul which ariseth today to guide others to the path of safety and infuse in them the Spirit of Life, the Holy Spirit will inspire that soul with evidences, proofs and facts and the lights will shine upon it from the Kingdom of God. Do not forget what I have conveyed unto thee from the breath of the Spirit. Verily, it is the shining morning and the rosy dawn which will impart unto thee the lights, reveal the mysteries and make thee competent in science, and through it the pictures of the Supreme World will be printed in thy heart and the facts of the secrets of the Kingdom of God will shine before thee.
Bahá’í World Faith, p. 369

TURN TO THE HOLY SPIRIT

Know thou, that letter sent to thee by me, was only because of my perfect love for thee and my pity upon thee, for I had the desire that the fragrance of the Holy Spirit, which hath perfumed all regions and imbued the entire body of the world with the Spirit of Life, should pass over thee and abide with thee. Notwithstanding the high position it occupieth, still, with an eloquent tongue, through which the Spirit moveth, hearts are attracted and bosoms burn, it speaketh to the pure hearts and to the good and righteous souls in every spot of the earth. This is the powerful Spirit, the dazzling light, the brilliant star and the overwhelming and universal abundance. And, from its traces, spread and divulged everywhere, thou wilt know and realize its influence and comprehend its radiance. I ask God to expose thee to its fragrance, move thee by its breeze, enkindle thee by its coals of fire and illuminate thee by its brightness. Turn thyself wholly to it—thus thou shalt be enabled to ascertain its influence and power, the strength of its life and the greatness of its confirmation. Verily, I say unto thee, that if for the appearance of that Divine Essence thou desirest to have a definite proof, an indisputable testimony and a strong, convincing evidence, thou must prepare thyself to make thy heart empty and thine eye ready to look only toward the Kingdom of God. Then, at that time, the radiance of that widespread effulgence will descend upon thee successively, and that motion rendered thee by the Holy Spirit will make thee dispense with any other strong evidence that leadeth to the appearance of this Light, because the greatest and strongest proof for showing the abundance of the Spirit to the bodies is the very appearance of its power and influence in those bodies.
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 368-369