Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[Subduction Zone]

LOL! I really don't need to try, SZ. You are doing it all for me.



Oh, I completely understand why YOU think that Trinity is irrational.
I was once an atheist and thought exactly the same. But sometimes Truth with a capital 'T' is irrational. I prefer to use the word supra-rational when speaking of Truths beyond human understanding.



Sorry, not sure what you're trying to say here - can you clarify?

You are projecting again.

When you are done dodging perhaps we can have a conversation. But it is clear to all that your beliefs are as irrational as those of a YEC.

 

[joelr]

There is no failure, his coming is internal - a progression of illumination for those that are "alive and remain" pressing into the Light.

He said in Luke 17: 23 They shall say Lo Here and Lo There, believe them not, nor follow them.

He came in his Kingdom, when he was transfigured before them.

It's a matter of understanding what Heaven really is.
It's not some grand 'Hawaii in the Sky'.

Actually the Israelites and even Christians did consider heaven in outer space. There were 7 and God lived in the 7th heaven and was also the place where the stars existed. The upper firmament extended to the moon and was where the heavenly temple was where Jesus ruled.
The Jewish Merkavah and Hekhalot literature give details about the heavens.
Paul mentions the 3rd heaven in Corinthians and Irenaeus taught the 7 heavens cosmology as well.

The system of heavens is originally from Mesopotamian myths and in the middle ages was still used:
"Over the course of the Middle Ages, Christian thinkers expanded the ancient Mesopotamian seven-heaven model into a system of ten heavens."

Modern concepts of heaven as different dimensions and such are new ideas and not based on original teachings as modern cosmology began to emerge religion had to adapt giving us further proof that religious stories are myths with sometimes allegorical or metaphorical truth.
Or sometimes like Yahweh vs Sea Monster, just myth.

 

[samtonga43]

No need to be sorry. Very few people see the evidence right now (Matthew 7:13-14)

History repeats itself. Very few people saw the evidence for Jesus in the beginning, but what the first disciples had seen the world realized later.

John 14:9 "Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

 

[samtonga43]

You are projecting again.

When you are done dodging perhaps we can have a conversation. But it is clear to all that your beliefs are as irrational as those of a YEC.

Clear to all -- are you sure?

Can you tell us all which beliefs I have that are irrational?
***
No dodging here. I simply asked what this phrase, 'spoken' by you, means.

...since no one can state what God is using that without contradicting themselves

You must surely admit that it makes no sense as it is. Maybe correct it?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Clear to all -- are you sure?

Can you tell us all which beliefs I have that are irrational?
***
No dodging here. I simply asked what this phrase, 'spoken' by you, means.

...since no one can state what God is using that without contradicting themselves

You must surely admit that it makes no sense as it is. Maybe correct it?

The problem is that there are so many different versions of God out there. You should know that. You have personally scoffed at literalists. Your claims and behavior, specifically your dodging of questions tells us that your version is just as irrational as any other. That is why I asked for your version.

The Trinity for example, does not appear to be an original Bible based belief. It arose from some of the self contradicting verses in the Bible as a way to explain them.

 

[samtonga43]

The problem is that there are so many different versions of God out there.

This does not mean that God does not exist.

You should know that. You have personally scoffed at literalists.

Well yes – I agreed with you when YOU scoffed at literalists. But God IS, however devoted literalists are to interpreting via eisegesis rather than exegesis.

Your claims and behavior, specifically your dodging of questions tells us that your version is just as irrational as any other. That is why I asked for your version.

But you insist that my beliefs are irrational. Doesn’t this imply (rationally) that you know what my beliefs ARE?

The Trinity for example, does not appear to be an original Bible based belief. It arose from some of the self contradicting verses in the Bible as a way to explain them.

I believe the Trinity makes sound spiritual sense. Can you provide some of the self contradicting verses and I will try to explain to you what I mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

John 14:9 "Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

“So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection........

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 114

 

[Subduction Zone]

This does not mean that God does not exist.

I never claimed that it does.

Well yes – I agreed with you when YOU scoffed at literalists. But God IS, however devoted literalists are to interpreting via eisegesis rather than exegesis.

And you seriously think that you are not doing the same?

But you insist that my beliefs are irrational. Doesn’t this imply (rationally) that you know what my beliefs ARE?

You demonstrated that they are, even though you deny it. A person that knows can justify their beliefs and you do not seem to be able to do that.

I believe the Trinity makes sound spiritual sense. Can you provide some of the self contradicting verses and I will try to explain to you what I mean?

How so? Once again this is an example of eisegesis rather than exegesis. And I am not interested in apologetics. That is literally apologizing for the errors in the Bible even if the definition of the word is supposedly not that.

There are quite a few verses in the synoptic Gospels where Jesus implies rather strongly that he is not God such as Mark where he often refers to himself as Son of Man or even Son of God, yet in John he makes rather clear claims that he is God. A rather clear one is "If you have seen me you have seen seen the Father". So without straining interpretation can you defend these differences? I doubt if you can.

 

[samtonga43]

1. I am not making an argument, i am only offering an opinion based upon personal experience.

Me too.

2. It is not a generalization unless you can show me a Christian who is willing to look at anything else besides the Bible or Jesus.... Got any of those Christians anywhere?

Hundreds. I did a university course (theology) a couple of years ago, along with many others. We studied Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism (both types), Sikhism, Judaism and Zoroastrianism.

Yes Tb, outside your narrow little world there are people who are willing to look into other faiths.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are quite a few verses in the synoptic Gospels where Jesus implies rather strongly that he is not God such as Mark where he often refers to himself as Son of Man or even Son of God, yet in John he makes rather clear claims that he is God. A rather clear one is "If you have seen me you have seen seen the Father". So without straining interpretation can you defend these differences? I doubt if you can.

I am not saying there are no contradictions in the Bible, but some verses that you think are contradictory are not really contradictory.

I can defend those differences you noted above. Jesus was the Son of Man and the Son of God, and there is nothing contradictory about that; they are simply two different aspects of who Jesus was. Son of Man is a title that is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented. Son of God must be understood in a metaphorical or symbolic sense; in relationship, Jesus was like a son would be to his father because God does not have genetic material to confer upon Jesus, nor does God have a body with which He could unite with Mary to produce a son.

"If you have seen me you have seen seen the Father" is not Jesus claiming to be God. Jesus was a mirror image of God's attributes, so seeing Jesus is like seeing God. That is what Jesus meant, as I explained in this post: #1007 Trailblazer, Today at 10:15 AM

Jesus was many things and that is why we see so many aspects of Jesus in different verses in the gospels. Jesus was a Manifestation of God (He manifested God, which is why He was a mirror image of God); but Jesus was also a Messenger of God because he brought a message from God; and Jesus was also a Servant of God because Jesus served God; and Jesus was also the Voice of God, because Jesus spoke for God; and Jesus was also a Representative of God because Jesus represented God as an attorney represents a client.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hundreds. I did a university course (theology) a couple of years ago, along with many others. We studied Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism (both types), Sikhism, Judaism and Zoroastrianism.

I can see that I phrased that incorrectly which led to an 'apparent' misunderstanding. I was not referring to studying other religions, I was referring to believing they are true. What I was really meant to say and ask is the following:

Show me a Christian who is willing to believe that any scriptures other than the Bible came from God or that any Messengers of God other than Jesus came from God.... Got any of those Christians anywhere?

Yes Tb, outside your narrow little world there are people who are willing to look into other faiths.

MY narrow world? Lol, Baha'is are well known for studying all the world religions.

Looking at other faiths is not the SAME as believing that other faiths are legitimate and true.

Baha'is believe that all the major religions you noted above (except Sikhism, which is a sect of Islam) came from the one true God through various Messengers of God, thus they are all true religions. By contrast, Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way to God and thus Christianity s the only true religion.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[samtonga43]

"If you have seen me you have seen seen the Father" is not Jesus claiming to be God. Jesus was a mirror image of God's attributes, so seeing Jesus is like seeing God.

Jesus was many things and that is why we see so many aspects of Jesus in different verses in the gospels. Jesus was a Manifestation of God (He manifested God, which is why He was a mirror image of God); but Jesus was also a Messenger of God because he brought a message from God; and Jesus was also a Servant of God because Jesus served God; and Jesus was also the Voice of God, because Jesus spoke for God; and Jesus was also a Representative of God because Jesus represented God as an attorney represents a client.

John 8:58: Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!”

Where have we heard this before? God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” Exodus 3:14

The Jews took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 8:58: Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!”

Where have we heard this before? God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” Exodus 3:14

The Jews took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus was saying that He existed before Abraham, Jesus was not saying that He was the "I AM" God referred to in Exodus 3:14.

The fact that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus meant and thought He was saying He was God just proves that they misunderstood what Jesus was saying, just like you misunderstand it.

The reason Jesus said that is because the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before he was born into the this world, so Jesus existed before Abraham was in this world. -- "Before Abraham was, I am."

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[Subduction Zone]

John 8:58: Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!”

Where have we heard this before? God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” Exodus 3:14

The Jews took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

But that is not not him saying that he is God. His statement is blasphemy since he is claiming to be close to a god in power and time of existence. You are merely fishing for statements that are close to his. Of course the authors of the Gospels were known to do this on purpose. Some verses were admittedly written to match perceived prophesies, though they often were not.

 

[samtonga43]

I can see that I phrased that incorrectly which led to an 'apparent' misunderstanding. I was not referring to studying other religions, I was referring to believing they are true. What I was really meant to say and ask is the following:

Show me a Christian who is willing to believe that any scriptures other than the Bible came from God or that any Messengers of God other than Jesus came from God.... Got any of those Christians anywhere?

Christians who can think rationally know that, as you say, Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that only He is the way to the Father.

Baha'is believe that all the major religions you noted above (except Sikhism, which is a sect of Islam) came from the one true God through various Messengers of God, thus they are all true religions.

But you want to burn the Holy book of one of those 'true religions'. You are making no sense.

***

Tell me, Tb, since you believe that these other religions are true, why aren't you a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Mormon? Why did you pick Bahai?

 

[samtonga43]

But that is not not him saying that he is God. His statement is blasphemy since he is claiming to be close to a god in power and time of existence.

Yes, the Pharisees agreed with you.

You are merely fishing for statements that are close to his. Of course the authors of the Gospels were known to do this on purpose. Some verses were admittedly written to match perceived prophesies, though they often were not.

Examples?

 

[samtonga43]

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus was saying that He existed before Abraham, Jesus was not saying that He was the "I AM" God referred to in Exodus 3:14.

The fact that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus meant and thought He was saying He was God just proves that they misunderstood what Jesus was saying, just like you misunderstand it.

The reason Jesus said that is because the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before he was born into the this world, so Jesus existed before Abraham was in this world. -- "Before Abraham was, I am."

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

What Bible version are you using? There's far too much 'Ye Olde English'.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, the Pharisees agreed with you.

Correct, they understood what was being said. It appears that you did not. It was not a claim that Jesus was God. It was bad enough to be blasphemy in their opinion.

Examples?

I am amazed that you are debating and are not a student of the Bible. The author of Matthew admits this several times: 1:22, 2:15, 2: 23 and others

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians who can think rationally know that, as you say, Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that only He is the way to the Father.

Jesus did not say He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that only He is the way to the Father.

There is nothing rational about believing that Jesus is the only way for all time unless you have tunnel vision. When Jesus said that He was the way, the truth, and the life; and no man could come unto the Father, but by Jesus. But that did not mean that the ONLY way, truth and life for all time; and it did not mean that no man could EVER come unto the Father, but by Jesus.

Jesus did not say:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the only way, the truth, and the life for all time: no man ever cometh unto the Father, but by me

This is logic 101 stuff. Let's say that when you were three years old your dad said that the only way you can ride a bike is if you ride a tricycle; that does not mean that when you are a teenager you have to keep riding a tricycle. No, you can ride a 10 speed when you are older, and then when you are an adult you can ride a motorcycle.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

Is really no different than what Baha'u'llah said about gaining access to the Father….

“Thou hast gained admittance into the Paradise of God’s Remembrance, through thy recognition of Him Who is the Embodiment of that Remembrance amongst men.” Gleanings p. 303

But you want to burn the Holy book of one of those 'true religions'. You are making no sense.

I don't really want to burn the Bible. I told you that was just a feeling I had and it is in a certain context... I feel that way because I believe that the Baha'i Faith is the truth that God wants everyone to adhere to in this age and I see no hope for that ever happening as long as Christians cling to the Bible, and I would say the same thing about Jews clinging to the Torah because they cling as much or more than Christians cling to the Bible!

Tell me, Tb, since you believe that these other religions are true, why aren't you a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Mormon? Why did you pick Bahai?

Glad you asked. The primary reason is because I believe that Baha'u'llah revealed the message that humanity needs in this age, including the oneness of religion and the unity of mankind. I also could never believe in any religion that taught that it is "the only way" because that makes no sense, and no just and loving God would reveal that message to His Messenger.

Another reason I am a Baha'i is because of the overwhelming evidence that shows that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. Last night I explained that on another thread.

adrian009 said: Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

Trailblazer said: Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whaever books had been published about the Bahai faitrh at that time and I read the Writings of Bahaulah and abdul-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age. Such was the effect that little book had upon my heart and mind. In the Preface to the paperback it says:

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings

And now that I have clearly glimpsed the spirit of this book I guess I am a lifer.

#22 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 5:51 PM

I would also like to point out that I was not raised in any religion so I had no bias. I was not even searching for God or a religion when I discovered the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

What Bible version are you using? There's far too much 'Ye Olde English'.

KJV