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Featured Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Now it appears that you are not being honest. Those were studies of studies that I posted. What it tells you is how all studies do. They also noted the better that the study was, i.e. the more attention they paid to proper protocols, the closer to no effect was found. In other words the studies that found both positive effects and negative effects tended to be more flawed than those that ensured proper double blindness and other standards.
     
  2. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    Intercessory prayer for people who had bypass surgery. Read this paragraph very carefully:

    The three-year Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), published in the April 4 American Heart Journal, was the largest-ever attempt to apply scientific methods to measure the influence of prayer on the well-being of another. It examined 1,800 patients undergoing heart-bypass surgery. On the eve of the operations, church groups began two weeks of praying for one set of patients. Each recipient had a praying contingent of about 70, none of whom knew the patient personally. The study found no differences in survival or complication rates compared with those who did not receive prayers. The only statistically significant blip appeared in a subgroup of patients who were prayed for and knew it. They experienced a higher rate of postsurgical heart arrhythmias (59 versus 52 percent of unaware subjects).

    Largest study ever undertaken found prayer does NOT work, Ken. Those who knew they were being prayed for had more complications. Not only does praying do no good statistically, but if you know you're being prayed for you'll do worse statistically. Link to Scientific American article below

    No Prayer Prescription
     
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  3. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    This is as outright a case of pure denial as I have ever come across. What kind of prayer? Who did the praying? Were they true Christians or merely lip-service payers? Did they pray over the patients and lay hands on them? Did the prayers mention name of Jesus? Did they exhort Jesus to heal them or God in Jesus' name? Were the prayers made in the waiting room before the operation or afterward in the ICU? And on and on and on. That's really sad, Ken. I truly think better of you than this.
     
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  4. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    God doesn't even have to show up. All he has to do is write something in the sky with the stars like "Jesus is my beloved son. Believe in him". Where does trying to kill God even come into the conversation?

    I know the default position for Christians is God works in mysterious ways. he doesn't really. If he really wanted people to believe in Jesus He would do something about it, and I don't mean leave behind a hopelessly flawed holy book to read. If He doesn't do anything when He knows believing in Jesus would save people then common sense tells any logical minded person that God is a deist God. He doesn't care whether we believe in Jesus or not. Simple as that.
     
  5. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    I think the Bible is not hopelessly flawed.
    at the point when they killed him last time.
    So this time it could be the same.
    I guess there are folks around who would flat out reject the God proposition even in that case.
    If you doubt: would we start another thread having a poll asking all atheists on this board if they would accept that as proof?
    I bet: more than 50% would say no.

    Why write messages in the sky, when it would be friendlier to show up in person?
    Apparently he likes more to show up in person.
    In principle.

    However, last time he even showed up but the nailed him to the cross.
    Before you ask God to adapt his ways to the ways of man let me remind you
    there is a common saying in English, that summarizes my thoughts here:
    You'll eat what you're given. ;)


    I think God likes staying himself.
    He did show up, that's enough, I think.
     
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  6. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    That's an excellent idea. Do you want to do it?
     
  7. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, really... All Christians BELIEVE that they understand the Bible yet they all understand it differently
    If they didn't understand it differently, all Christians would agree with each other on what the Bible means and there would never have been SECTS of Christianity.

    I am not saying that Christians do not agree on anything, only that they don't agree on everything, and they disagree on some of the basics, like whether they will go to heaven after they die or live forever on earth.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    SeekingAllTruth said: All he has to do is write something in the sky with the stars like "Jesus is my beloved son. Believe in him".

    How would anyone on earth know that God wrote that?
    It could just as easily be an alien, or a Christian stunt.

    BTW, I have been over and over this subject of what God could/should offer as proof of His existence in various threads I have started. One atheist said that God could drop Bibles books with the new and updated information that God wants us to know in the living rooms of every single person on earth.... that would prove that God exists. :rolleyes:
    And of course that would be so much more efficient than expecting people to refer to the Baha’i Reference Library online. ;)
     
  10. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    I'd take anything that could not be explained away as anything other than supernatural--something even the scientists would have to admit science has no explanation for how could happen. Aliens couldn't line up 2 billions stars in a sentence anyway no matter how powerful they are.
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Thanks for sharing. I have discussed 1 Cor 15 at length with Christians over the years so I already have many write-ups explaining what I believe it means. The following is what I believe. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.

    I do not believe that a physical body can come back to life after three days; that goes against all that is known by science. Moreover, even if such a miracle happened to Jesus, I do not believe that means that the physical bodies of all the believers that ever lived are going to come up out of their graves when Jesus returns. 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    In light of how I interpreted the verses above, here is how I interpret the verses that follow those.

    I believe that verse 23 refers to Christ at his first coming because there is no reason to think the verse refers to the second coming.

    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    The following verses refer to the time of the end (not the end of the world but rather the end of the age). I believe these verses refer to what will happen at the second coming, but it won’t be the same man Jesus who is coming. Rather it will be the return of the Christ Spirit in another man with a New Name (Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12), and I believe that was Baha’u’llah.

    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


    I believe that the last enemy that will be destroyed is spiritual death, not physical death.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death because the physical body was never designed by God to live forever, and that is why it is subject to death and decomposition. However, the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.

    Thus I believe that eternal life refers to a quality of life, gaining the rewards of the heaven, which are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of life, since all souls live forever.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, Baha'u'llah is not Jesus Christ, and He never claimed to be.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Jesus never claimed to be Creator and rightful ruler of this world. That is a Christian BELIEF that came about from misinterpreting scripture. Jesus also never claimed to be the Only Way for all time. When Jesus said He was the Only Way that only pertained to the Christian Dispensation. Since then, God has offered humanity three other Ways to God, through Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    Jesus never planned to return to earth and that is why He never promised to return, not once in the New Testament. Jesus is in heaven at the Right Hand of God and there he will stay, forever. I don't know why it is not good enough for Christians that Jesus is in heaven and they will see Him in heaven after they die. This earthly life is just a minuscule part of our total existence. Most of our life will be lived after we die physically and pass to the spiritual world.

    You can believe anything you want to while you are still alive in this world because you have free will to choose your beliefs. The going only gets rough after people die and realize what was actually the truth, if God even gives them that opportunity.

    According to my beliefs all people will be answerable to God after that die and people who knew of Baha'u'llah will have to answer to God regarding why they rejected Baha'u'llah. God may or may not have mercy on their souls given individual circumstances, that is not my department. But at the very least, there will be a life review, and there is good reason to believe that Christians and all others who rejected Baha'u'llah, will be made aware of what they lost.

    “It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

    I cannot say that I know what Baha'u'llah meant by "They that are the followers of the one true God." Since there is only one true God, the Abrahamic God, Baha'u'llah was probably referring to all those who believe in Him, including Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha'is.

    I cannot say that I know what Baha'u'llah meant by "they that live in error." That could mean those who rejected Baha'u'llah (if they knew of Him) but most likely it means those who led evil lives and committed evil deeds like murder and torture.
     
    #292 Trailblazer, Feb 20, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Okay, that is a valid point of view, but God is not going to do anything like that because God wants our faith. ;)

    There are many Bible verses I really like.

    Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

    I got that verse from a Christian friend who I posted to for about seven years on other forums, and he came to this forum when I told him about it so he is here among us. That verse explains why God does not provide absolute proof, because then we would not need faith.

    As I have told many atheists, anyone who sets criteria for God as to how He should reveal Himself is not earnestly seeking God. I wonder what God thinks about that? Just as a matter of logic, humans do not get to set criteria for the Almighty God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. That is illogical and ludicrous. As Baha'u'llah wrote, "God doeth whatsoever He chooseth." That comes with being omnipotent. ;)
     
  14. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    Your belief in your statement above is in itself subjective.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Not really. It can be tested. It is falsifiable.

    But it does make those with an irrational belief to accuse others of their sins.
     
  16. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    How can it be tested?
     
  17. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    this passage (1 Corinthians 15:22-23) cannot refer to Christ's first coming.
    That one happened already by the time Paul wrote his letters. However the passage is written in future tense.

    edited for clarity.
     
    #297 thomas t, Feb 21, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Find a case when faith was a pathway to the truth.
     
  19. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    Good luck with that.
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    There would not be 'endlessly different religions' but there would still be more than one religion, since God has revealed a new religion through His Messengers in every new age. However, in the future when all the religions unite there will be only one religion. New Messengers of God will still continue to come throughout history but everyone will know that they came from the same God so the 'one religion' will just be updated by that new Messenger.
     
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