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Featured Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Matthew 24:25-34
    King James Version


    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    If you read all these verses in context, in Matthew 24:34 Jesus was referring to the generation that came AFTER the Son of man returns, which is AFTER the things in Matthew 24:29 happen. Those things happened right before Baha'u'llah appeared.

    So it is just as @ loverofhumanity said:

    “Clearly, Christ is saying that the ungodly and wicked generations as in Noah, will not pass until the Son of Man has returned and changed the world. Wicked and ungodly generations have continued for well beyond the time Christ uttered those Words.”
     
    #261 Trailblazer, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
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  2. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    These Words of the Bible need to be pondered and reflected on if we are to unravel the meanings of many passages.

    Matthew 13:16

    But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

    Here eyes are being praised for ‘seeing’ and ears for ‘hearing’ yet most are born able to see and hear. Christ here is clearly referring to insight or perception with our inner eyes and understanding with our inner ears.

    Again another term often used in the Bible which confuses many. The term ‘death’. What is meant by it. Is it always physical death? Read this and reflect a little.

    Luke 9:60

    Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

    Now this doesn’t make any sense literally and is opposed to science and reason as dead bodies decompose not walk around. So here Christ is clearly referring to a symbolical meaning of death which we can safely say is spiritual death.

    Out of interest I found a new translation of this verse that says just that.

    New Living Translation

    But Jesus told him, “Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go and preach about the Kingdom of God.”

    When we speak about the second coming we need to take these deeper meanings into account otherwise God passes us by and we are none the wiser.
     
    #262 loverofhumanity, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The historicity of Jesus relates to whether Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. Nearly all historians accept that Jesus existed, and standard historical criteria have aided in reconstructing his life.

    Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia
    But that does not mean that what was recorded in the gospels literally happened. As I think I told you before, I base my belief in Jesus and who He was upon what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote about Jesus. That does not mean I don't think that the gospels contain any sayings of Jesus, but I do not believe they were the exact words of Jesus, as that is logically impossible. Moreover, the stories about Jesus rising from the dead and raising people from the dead are not based upon any historical evidence so there is no reason to believe them.
     
  4. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    I think it's possible, maybe even likely that a Jesus figure upon which the son of God accounts are based lived, but he in my opinion was nothing more than a mortal man who according to many scholars came to a bad end on a cross because he was a rebel dissident of Rome trying to stir up a rebellion. The only people the Romans found worthy of crucifixion were rebels and lawbreakers. The Romans simply did not crucify religious leaders; they didn't think believing in a particular religion was a crime. This whole thing of the Pharisees cutting deals with Judas to betray Jesus into the hands of the Romans is just fanciful hogwash dreamt up by Mark and copied by the others because it made for real drama in an otherwise pretty lackluster account in my opinion---just like a Harry Potter novel. Think of Jesus as another harry Potter. ;)
     
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  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Well, as I told you before, I am deficient in history and Bible history so that makes it difficult for me to have an informed opinion. All I can tell you is what I believe about Jesus as a Baha'i, which is different from what many non-Christian scholars believe yet also different from what Christians believe about Jesus. What Baha'is believe about Jesus is that He was a Manifestation of God and a Messenger of God who had a two-fold nature. We believe that Jesus was not an ordinary man nor was He God, as Christians believe. Rather, God conferred upon Jesus a spiritual nature that ordinary humans do not possess:

    “Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67
     
  6. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
    In my opinion, God is a great father to me.
    yes, he could do that.
    And people woulod want to kill him then, I'm afraid.
    They killed Jesus so why shouldn't they try to kill him next time he shows up.
    Going to a gathering of people wanting to kill/ rape/ beat/ kick you must be an unpleasant experience.
    God has a right to withhold appearance, as I see it.

    not to the expense of showing up in a hostile environment.
    A close relative once went to a country that had a very conservative view on clothing.
    She showed up at a beach in beach clothing and everyone stared at her breasts.
    The third day it got on her nerves.

    This is how God must feel when he would show up and every other person wants to kill him, I think.
    Yes he could defend himself, but all the staring (waiting for an "good" opportunity to kill) must get on his nerves. Very much in the way that my relative was offended by all those never ending glances at always the same part of her body.

    Do you do anything to prevent it?
    When a father beats up his own child... why do you blame God?

    It isn't impossible though.
     
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  7. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    I don't think it's silly.
    No indoctrination here.
    I don't think that Jesus got hung up on the clouds.
    He just waits with returning in person. That's all.

    I also believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead and that it is not a lie to claim that he did so.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Sorry if that sounded offensive, everyone has a right to their beliefs.
    Perhaps my beliefs about all the worlds of God we will go to when we die sound silly to some people. :D

    I can understand why Christians believe in the bodily resurrection because it is written in the New Testament, but I do not understand why Christians believe that Jesus is going to return to earth because Jesus never promised to do that, not once in the New Testament.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I for one would have a few words with God if He ever showed up. :mad:
    It is no wonder He is hiding in heaven. :rolleyes:
     
  10. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Thank you, Trailblazer.
    Jesus's Second Coming comes across as a fact in the Bible, see 1 Corinthians 15:23.
    Paul would not talk like that if Jesus's second coming never would take place.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    What do you think Paul meant, within the context of the other verses in that chapter?
    Why do you think that verse refers to the "second" coming?
     
  12. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    Really? Think again.
     
  13. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    well it says "coming". Coming means coming when someone comes simply.
    I don't find any reason to think that coming has a different meaning in this particular chapter.
    So, coming is still coming
    and since Jesus did not show up in person yet, I call it "second".
    That was easy?
     
  14. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, and his spirit came as he said it would.
     
  15. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    As a disciple of Jesus I believe Baha'u'llah ins’t Christ, that’s why we don’t respond to the voice of another.

    The Son will return in power and authority as he was when he left, Creator and rightful ruler of this world.
     
    #275 cOLTER, Feb 20, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  16. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I don't agree....

    What type of prayer did they use in that study?
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    that information doesn't have enough information to qualify the veracity of its study.

    1) What type of people were doing the praying
    2) What type of prayer was being used
    3) What was the theological position they were using when they were praying.

    Since studies have to be very specific, these are very important questions.

    It would be like taking a large polling sample of thousands and then finding out the sample was mainly non-voters and heavily one sided in a particular party. important factors that give skewed responses... especially in the light that there are other contradictory studies (as noted)
     
    #277 KenS, Feb 20, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You made the error of cherry picking a study that you liked. I looked more at metastudies, or studies about studies. When one looks at quite a few studies the answer is that prayer does not help.
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I would have to disagree....

    Again, with as many people in our church where doctors are amazed - even this last month where doctor looked at the x-rays - going to put in a stint in the arteries - went in and then said "I know I saw the blockage but it isn't there"...

    You just can't argue with results.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That is because at best you do not understand how studies are done. You are relying on anecdotes now. Those are totally unreliable. Amateurs quite often get the initial facts wrong, get the secondary facts wrong, or just flat out lie. And you have no idea if they did any of those.

    In other words unconfirmed nonsense is not evidence.
     
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