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Featured Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SeekingAllTruth, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I am not thinking of a human-type Person. God is not a Person or Persons, that is a man-made religious doctrine. It is nowhere in the Bible.

    Personal God

    While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

    What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

    God in the Baháʼí Faith
    Jesus certainly did say it, more than once:

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


    The Holy Spirit proceeds only from God. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Jesus and descended upon Jesus as a Dove. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Baha’u’llah and descended upon Baha’u’llah as a Maiden in the Black Pit prison in 1852 AD.

    Having received the Holy Spirit from God, both Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Comforter and Spirit of truth are just titles for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who taught all things and testified of Jesus.

    Baha'u'llah was also called the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    Nobody can be fully man and fully God. That is completely illogical, but you have been duped into believing it. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, so God was manifested in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. As the Bible says God is Spirit, and God cannot become flesh. All these are false Christian doctrines.

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Grasp this fact? That Jesus was fully man and fully God? Sorry, context does not matter…. I do not believe things about Jesus that are not in the Bible, those are all false doctrines of the Church.
     
  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    :) You are welcome. What evidence do you have for existence of a God?
     
  3. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: Here is my question again:
    Because God has no meaning for you, does it follow that God has no meaning for others?
    It's a simple question, but if you are unable to answer, just say so.
     
  4. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    The B.man is just another guy who thought that he was ‘special’.
    More flowery language which escapes the harsh reality. Is “shed the splendor of His Glory” a euphemism for a slow, agonizing death while nailed on a cross?
    1 Timothy 1:15
    "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."
    John 3:16-17
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him" Jesus paid the price for our sin, to make eternal life possible. The B.man. could never have done this, since he was just a man.
    Maybe you should think before you type awful things, and before you say awful things to your husband.
    Do you know which logical fallacy this is? Hmmmm….
    So, who to believe…Scripture or Tb? My, what a decision! I am quite sure that you missed out the following words, “These three are one” because you know that they can refer to nothing else than the Trinity.
    No. The one that you believe is three separate entities is not three separate entities. They are Three Persons in ONE Being. LOL! You make this so easy, Tb..
    Again, it’s all about the nature of the incarnation. Jesus was fully man, fully God. He subjected Himself to the will of the Father while on earth. Always remember context.
    Explained to you in #2092
    While Jesus was incarnate, His Father certainly was greater. Jesus the man subjected His will to that of His Father.
    Mainly because I don’t think they are ‘thinking logically’. No one can possibly ‘think logically’ about that which is supra-rational.
     
  5. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    No. The Word was God. Don’t you see what he’s doing? He is leaving out the words which negate his point.
    What a poor interpretation!
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, the Word was God but the Word was not Jesus because Jesus is not God.

    John 1 King James Version (KJV)

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made by God since God created the heavens and the earth.

    The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
    What words do you think those words are?
    Do you have a better one?
     
    #2106 Trailblazer, Jul 7, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2021
  7. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. I am glad you finally realize this.
    I explained this to you in #2092
    Jesus is fully God, fully Man.
    The Bible teaches that Jesus is not just someone who is like God; He is God himself. As Christians we are “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ JesusTitus 2:13

    When he saw the resurrected Christ, Thomas cried out, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28).

    No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. John 1:18

    ***
    By the way, where is that proof I asked you for in my #2097?
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, the Bible does not teach that, the Church teaches that. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, not God incarnate.

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
    The verse says: “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus. There are two entities there, our great God and our Savior Christ Jesus.
    So what? that does not mean Jesus was God. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
    John 1:18

    KJ21
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.
    ESV
    No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
    ESVUK
    No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
    KJV
    No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    AKJV
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    LEB
    No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.
    TLB
    No one has ever actually seen God, but, of course, his only Son has, for he is the companion of the Father and has told us all about him.
    NASB
    No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.
    NASB1995
    No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
    NCB
    No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, who has made him known.
    NCV
    No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.
    NIRV
    No one has ever seen God. But the One and Only is God and is at the Father’s side. The one at the Father’s side has shown us what God is like.
    NIV
    No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
    NKJV
    No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
    NLV
    The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.
    NMB
    No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.
    NRSV
    No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
    NRSVA
    No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
    NRSVACE
    No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
    NRSVCE
    No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.
    NTE
    Nobody has ever seen God. The only-begotten God, who is intimately close to the father – he has brought him to light.
    RGT
    No one has yet seen God at any time. The Only Begotten Son, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
    RSV
    No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
    RSVCE
    No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
    TLV
    No one has ever seen God; but the one and only God, in the Father’s embrace, has made Him known.
    WEB
    No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared him.
    WE
    No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.
    WYC
    No man saw ever God [No man ever saw God], but the one begotten Son, that is in the bosom of the Father, he hath told out.
    YLT
    God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.
    Baha'u'llah is the proof.

    “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
     
  9. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    By the way, where is that proof I asked you for in my #2097?
    I see. The B. man is the proof of the B. man.
    C'mon, Tb. Even you must see how ridiculous this 'reasoning' is!!
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The passage does not say that Baha'u'llah is proof of Baha'u'llah...
    The passage says: "He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."

    That means that the Person of Baha'u'llah is proof of His Mission from God. :)
     
  11. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen such a perfect example of 'Begging the Question' as this. Ridiculous reasoning.
     
  12. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    But don’t you see that if these verses were about God they would read:
    In the beginning was God, and God was with God, and God was God. God was in the beginning with God.
    ?
    The words of the ‘authoritative Baha'i interpretation of that verse’, posted by you. Did you forget? Here they are:--
    “As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”
    Where are the words “and the Word was God”?
     
  13. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    LOL! It wouldn’t be difficult, Tb.
    "Although the unity of God is the main theme of the Old Testament, in some passages the multipersonal nature of God is certainly suggested (see Genesis 1:26 and 3:22, Psalm 45:6-7, Isaiah 6:8 and 48:12-17). However, it is in the New Testament that we find the fullest, clearest revelation of the concept summarized in the Trinity doctrine.

    The gospel of John begins like this: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made” (John 1:1-3). Three things are immediately apparent:

    First, the Word was God. The Word had the character and nature of God; what God was, the Word was. Second, the personal pronoun him is applied to the Word, indicating that the Word is a personal being. Third, the Word was with God. The term with* indicates that the Word was not the same Person as the One with whom he was, One who is also referred to as God.

    John 1:14, 17, and 18 further explain the identity of the Word:

    “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we have beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth . . . . For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” In the Beginning Was the Word
    Nonsense. It is manifestly true that Jesus is God. Divine perfections did not just ‘appear’; He is both divine and perfect. He is not ‘like’ anything or anyone. He is not an ‘appearance’. He is God and He manifests in three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but the three are one.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe my personal experience is not written down in the Bible.
     
  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I had a similar case: Ibelieve I heard from God at age 13 before I knew Jesus as other than a mere man.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is illogical. The past actions do not determine future actions automatically so Jesus can return any way He wishes.

    I believe that shows you don't understand the verse. It says Jesus will be seen not veiled. There is no justification for making the word "cloud" mean veil.

    I don't believe there is any justification for saying that it is metaphorical. I believe saying that is a way of dismissing what it says because you don't like what it says.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But Jesus never promised to return. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus say He is going to return to earth.

    Jesus said His work was finished here and he was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4)
    There is no justification for believing that clouds means literal clouds. Baha'u'llah was seen by many but veiled from many.
    It does not matter what I like, all that matters is what is true and what is actually in the Bible. Jesus never planned or promised to return to earth in the same body. He promised that the Father would give us another Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit, and that was Baha'u'llah.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How is that Begging the Question?
    Who Baha'u'llah was and what He did on His Mission was proof of the truth of His Mission.
    The same applied to Jesus in His Day.

    “But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ…” Some Answered Questions, p. 101
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I did not say that the Word was God. I said the Word refers to Jesus (the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus). Regarding the meaning of the Word (Jesus) was with God see below.

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    (1 In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.)

    Jesus was God manifested in the flesh, not God incarnated in the flesh, because the Essence of God cannot become flesh:

    “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

    Now the following two verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made by God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    I did not say that the Word was God. The Word was Jesus who was a Manifestation of God.
    The ‘authoritative Baha'i interpretation says that the Holy Spirit and the Word are the "appearance of God." The Word means the divine perfections that "appeared" in Jesus Christ. That's why we have this verse further down.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The Word (Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among us means that Jesus, who had previously been with God in the spiritual world before His birth, was born into this world and walked among us.


    (96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

    The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

    (Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

    The reason John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," is because Jesus was with God in the spiritual world in the beginning.

    It took me a while to figure al this out, but now I can see how it all fits together. :)
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    There are many ways to explain what verses mean. I don't disagree with any of the above.
    But then you messed everything up by saying that Jesus is God. It is manifestly false that Jesus is God. Jesus had a divine nature and a human nature and Jesus was God manifested in the flesh but Jesus was not God incarnate. In other words, God did not become Jesus, God has always been separate from Jesus yet united in purpose and spirit. The Bible proves that over and over and over and over again.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.
     
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