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Jesus Feels Forsaken - Gnostic View?

Discussion in 'Gnosticism DIR' started by Being, Jan 24, 2015.

  1. Being

    Being Being

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    I posted this is the Christian Theology subforum, but I'm reposting it here because I'm very interested in the Gnostic perspective. (I am not familiar with most Gnostic thought, so please consider defining any terms or concepts that are particular to Gnosticism. Thanks.)

    I'm curious to know other people's perspectives on what is happening to the character of Jesus in the following passage. I'm familiar with various theological views. So, if you could also offer a psychological or a sociological view, that would be helpful. And even if you don't believe that Jesus Christ was a real historical person (as some people don't), would you still be able to offer a comment based on viewing Jesus as a literary character, even if you believe the literature is mythological in nature. What is the message for the reader, for human society, for humanity?

    From Matthew chapter 27:45-47 NASB.

    45 Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" 47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah." (Cf. Mark 15:33-35)

    What are the implications in the death of "God" as a Human Being. What is the intended moral to the story. From a psychological POV, what is the commentary it's making on Humanity and the Human experience, and the Human psyche. What might the darkness represent?

    What is the underlying message about Humanity and Divinity? About Human self-discovery? And about reckoning with one's Reality? What might the message be to the reader?

    And in the broader narrative -- taking all four canonical gospels as a whole -- who or what is the "(Heavenly) Father" to whom Jesus yields his spirit in the end? (See Luke 23:44-46. Note that Luke mentions the darkness, but not Jesus' cry of feeling forsaken.) How does Jesus differentiate and/or reconcile the "God" by whom he feels forsaken, and the "Father" in whom Jesus trusts in the end?

    What experience has Jesus processed between those two moments? What do his two statements, one of feeling betrayed and then one of trusting, reveal about Jesus' experience and his psyche? How do you view the conclusion of Jesus' death, and what are the implications in your conclusion, concerning Jesus' psychological state?

    Thank you.
     
  2. ELoWolfe

    ELoWolfe Member

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    There won't be a singular Gnostic answer. It depends on the individual group, and even then to the individual believer. I will say some thoughts on the Crucifixion though.

    The first is that the person who died on the cross wasn't Jesus, but Simon of Cyrene. This is a docetic view of Jesus, and often has Jesus watching from afar, laughing at everyone who thinks they are killing him. Jesus wouldn't have said these lines then, but Simon.

    Another view is that the Christ as an Aeon connected with Jesus during his baptism but left Jesus on the cross. Jesus is thus calling out to the Christ, wondering why the Christ is seemingly abandoning him at this time. This would be the human Jesus (and not the mythological Christ we have known later) reacting.

    This later view is seen from a few groups. Some Valentinians, if I remember correctly, believed that Jesus as a prophet, a vehicle for the Christ (but not the Christ) would ascend to the pneumatic heaven and be at the right hand of the Demiurge, while Christ would be at the right hand of the Father in the Pleroma. Since these views don't have the Demiurge as evil (only "not-wholly-good"), this wasn't a problem of view that earlier groups would have been aghast at (since they viewed the Demiurge as wholly evil, and thus Jesus would never have been associated with it).
     
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  3. Whiterain

    Whiterain Get me off of this planet

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    Bare with me...

    A vision I had of Christ (stereotypical Christ) was him displaying himself standing in the crowd while a man was crucified. He insinuated people loved it.

    Isn't that sick?

    The Man was crying out to him, who was standing there in the crowd. It was terrible. The man crucified seemed absolutely innocent..

    It's perverted and diabolic as hell.

    Pardon my delusion, but Christ is also 2000 years older as well, I consider that may make him insatiably cruel... I couldn't present you with any interesting information. That puzzled me for a minute and I dismissed it, but he also told me he is not my enemy.
     
  4. frangipani

    frangipani Member
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    My friend, Christ was not standing in the crowd as Jesus was crucified. Christ is a Spirit and Christ had already left the body of the man Jesus. He was in Spirit above and looking down. He did not laugh at the barbarity of the Romans and Jews, nor the suffering of Jesus on the cross. He did not laugh as in humour at a man suffering. He laughed at the vain efforts of ignorant, proud, selfish and arrogant people in their attempt to kill Christ, something they never understood, nor could they kill. They killed their man, Jesus, not the Spirit that for a time possessed him. The Spirit is within each of us except the sociopath (just an animal in human form). Those who look inwardly to the Spirit for life are those whose Soul and Spirit become one and both are saved, and only the animal dies. The human animal belongs here and it is within the powers that be on earth as to how that animal is treated. I am sure the Soul of Jesus was saved with the Christ Spirit and all that suffering on the cross, Jesus laying down His life for that of Christ, His friend, brought about His salvation, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for that of his friend.
     
  5. Whiterain

    Whiterain Get me off of this planet

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    I was talking about a dream dude, jesus was in the crowd eating popcorn. It was like the passion of christ.
     
  6. ELoWolfe

    ELoWolfe Member

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    But that is the thing, TD286. You described a scene found in Gnostic thought. Your individual dream varied slightly, but it is the same. frangipini was recounting the actual Gnostic myth of it.

    Your individual dream, your private myth, connected to the older, ancient Gnostic myth.
     
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  7. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    As opposed to a Gnostic conception, Jesus was fully human. As such He faced the very same apprehension we all do when faced with the aloneness of death. He previously prayed 'in the garden' that this 'cup' be taken from Him, but conceded 'Your will be done'.
    Did Jesus have a sense that his mission had failed? He was cursed by the leaders of His own religion, denied by His closest disciple, executed as a criminal, and seemingly abandoned by His God. Yet He is vindicated. God raised Him out of death to life.
     
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