Jesus Empty tomb narratives

[Trailblazer]

What "original" teachings? Did the Church alter the NT and the Jewish Bible? Did Paul?

What Jesus taught in the various parables, Sermon on the Mount, etc.

No, they did not alter anything, they just ignored it in favor of their glorified version of Jesus, who they “believe” rose from the dead and who they believe is the King Messiah, even though Jesus denied that.

Christianity, with its man-made doctrines and dogmas, is not the religion of Jesus. It strayed far from the original teachings of Jesus and it became the new religion of Paul. Jesus never claimed religious worship for Himself and was not worshiped in the original community. By making Jesus into the risen Christ, Paul transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’ The centerpiece of Christian doctrine was that of Redemption, something of which Jesus Himself knew nothing. This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity, that Paul with his Gospel became the core of Christian dogma formation, and conquered the world, while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy.

True in substance? What substance? We can't take what Jesus said or did as having literally happened?

What Jesus taught has nothing to do with what literally happened.

No, God didn't take care of the message of Jesus. We don't know his exact words, so how can we know what he intended to convey.

We know the substance of what Jesus said and that is all we need to know.

Christians can take their Scripture as literal or as liberal as they what. But Baha'i cannot allow them to be taken literal, since that would contradict the Baha'i teachings. Baha'is can only accept their interpretation.

This is all about the resurrection stories, why not just admit it? Baha’is are not the only ones who do not believe Jesus rose from the dead. Liberal Christians do not believe that either.

Oh, and still, under the protection of God? Yet, God allowed for hundreds and hundreds of years the Jews and the Christians to spread the false story about Isaac being the one taken to be sacrificed? No, this is Baha'u'llah making the Bible fit with Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

What is more serious, that God allowed the bodily resurrection to be believed by millions of people or whether it was Isaac or Ishmael who was sacrificed?

It was Islam who made the interpretation that it was Ishmael, the Baha’i Faith simply adheres to what the Islam says.

Big deal if it was Isaac or Ishmael. It is no big deal to anyone but people who care about it. It is insignificant to the Baha’is and the reason why was explained by the UHJ.

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance....

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[CG Didymus]

why not just admit it?

Yes, just admit it. Baha'is don't really believe in the New Testament and the Jewish Bible. But, I know for some reason, you'll say you do? Believing parts of it, the parts that you can use, doesn't mean you believe in it. All the flowery things said in the Baha'i writings about the Bible are meaningless.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, just admit it. Baha'is don't really believe in the New Testament and the Jewish Bible. But, I know for some reason, you'll say you do? Believing parts of it, the parts that you can use, doesn't mean you believe in it. All the flowery things said in the Baha'i writings about the Bible are meaningless.

We do not believe the stories are literally true, but neither do some Jews and Christians.
We do not believe in the bodily resurrection, but neither do some Christians.
We believe in the Essence, the spiritual messages, what Moses and Jesus taught.

 

[CG Didymus]

We do not believe the stories are literally true, but neither do some Jews and Christians.
We do not believe in the bodily resurrection, but neither do some Christians.
We believe in the Essence, the spiritual messages, what Moses and Jesus taught.

The essence? Like Matthew 22:37-40... “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So Baha'is believe in the essence. I could say I believe in the "essence" of the Baha'i Faith... that all people are one. Again, just admit it... Baha'is don't really believe in the Bible. And there's nothing wrong with that, just don't pretend that you do.

Oh, what is the "spiritual" message that Moses taught? Maybe, there is one God? And to obey his commandments?

Deut. 28:1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.
2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:..
7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven...
9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in obedience to him.
10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you...
15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:
16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country...
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.
21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.
22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.​

Hmmm? Maybe not. The essence of what Moses and God said sound pretty harsh. Let's stick with the "Golden Rule" being the essence. What do you think?

 

[Trailblazer]

The essence? Like Matthew 22:37-40... “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Yes, that would be part of the essence, a good example.

So Baha'is believe in the essence. I could say I believe in the "essence" of the Baha'i Faith... that all people are one. Again, just admit it... Baha'is don't really believe in the Bible. And there's nothing wrong with that, just don't pretend that you do.

You sound just like a Christian who I posted to for six years. I would never admit to him that I do not believe in the Bible just because I did not interpret it they way he did, so I won't admit that to you, since it is not true. Just because I do not believe in the bodily resurrection that does not mean I do not believe in the Bible.

Oh, what is the "spiritual" message that Moses taught? Maybe, there is one God? And to obey his commandments?

Yes, those would be part of the spiritual message of Moses.

Hmmm? Maybe not. The essence of what Moses and God said sound pretty harsh. Let's stick with the "Golden Rule" being the essence. What do you think?

I would rather stick with the Ten Commandments as the essence of what Moses taught, since the Golden Rule was part of the essence of what Jesus taught.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not believe in the bodily resurrection that does not mean I do not believe in the Bible.

I don't even like calling what Christians follow "The Bible." That's why I usually separate the NT from the Jewish Bible. If we ask Christians what the essence of their beliefs are, it's probably going to be based on things found in the NT rather than the Jewish part of the Bible.

"Believing" in the Bible can mean different things. To what level does a person believe it? Most of us don't take it very literal. Those that do will probably say that the "essence" of their beliefs are that Jesus is the only way. A person is lost in their sins if they don't accept that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of the world. Then, to prove Jesus had the power and authority to say and do the things he did, God raised him from the dead.

The essence for liberal Christians is more like do unto others as you'd like them to do unto you. They aren't going to take the Bible very literally but will still say they "believe" in the Bible.

I would rather stick with the Ten Commandments as the essence of what Moses taught, since the Golden Rule was part of the essence of what Jesus taught.

Judaism, and most all religions, have a version of the Golden Rule. I would put the Ten Commandments, and the rest of the Law, into the "social" law category. For Jews, probably not, because the Bible says for them to keep these laws forever. But, who's going to start sacrificing bulls and goats again? Even most Christians don't follow all ten of the commandments. They drop the one about keeping the Sabbath.

I'd say the essence of most all religions was to get people to be nice to each other. But then, for me, there is the rules that seem to be man made that compel people to obey those rules. Even the Baha'i Faith has a bunch of rules I don't think can be followed. So why would God give them knowing that people will fall way short of obeying them? Like Jesus supposedly said for men not to look at a woman with lust in his heart. I don't know any man that can do that. And the ones that try to do that, I knew some Christians that did try, drive themselves nuts with guilt when they fail.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? Maybe not. The essence of what Moses and God said sound pretty harsh. Let's stick with the "Golden Rule" being the essence. What do you think?

The promises and warnings of our neglect are made clear.

So what then becomes our excuse when we fail to heed the promise and then complain about the warnings, the result of our neglect?

The passages also say no one is exempt, if you say you beleive, you are still weighed against the standards called for.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd say the essence of most all religions was to get people to be nice to each other. But then, for me, there is the rules that seem to be man made that compel people to obey those rules. Even the Baha'i Faith has a bunch of rules I don't think can be followed. So why would God give them knowing that people will fall way short of obeying them? Like Jesus supposedly said for men not to look at a woman with lust in his heart. I don't know any man that can do that. And the ones that try to do that, I knew some Christians that did try, drive themselves nuts with guilt when they fail.

A Revelation from God is a Revelation from God. If the teachings were given to us by God, then the laws were also given to us by God.

I'd say that you cannot take the teachings (be nice to each other) and disregard the laws of religion, and Baha'u'llah said the same thing in so many words.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

The laws can be followed even if it is difficult for some people, but humanity has not matured spiritually to the point where everyone can follow all the laws as given. This will change over time, as we are only at the beginning of a Revelation that will span no less than 1000 years. The bar is set high so those who are ready will have high standards to live by. If the bar was not set high, that would just give people more excuses to follow their selfish desires.

 

[CG Didymus]

The promises and warnings of our neglect are made clear.

So what then becomes our excuse when we fail to heed the promise and then complain about the warnings, the result of our neglect?

The passages also say no one is exempt, if you say you beleive, you are still weighed against the standards called for.

Regards Tony

In any religion, has anybody lived up to the standards of their religion? The NT says the adulterers, fornicatiors and homosexuals will not enter into heaven. Then Jesus defines it for men as any man that looks at a woman with lust. So who's going to make it? Is a little desiring okay as long as it doesn't cross the line into lust? I don't think so. I remember some Baha'i quote about being so pure of thought that a can walk by a pot of gold or the most beautiful woman and not turn his eyes away from looking to God. Who, in real life, does that? And who tries to do that and doesn't turn themselves into basket cases? And most all people that say they are that pure are probably lying and are worse than those that do it and admit it and enjoy it.

 

[CG Didymus]

A Revelation from God is a Revelation from God. If the teachings were given to us by God, then the laws were also given to us by God.

Read the laws in the Bible and tell me if you honestly believe that they all came from God. Read all the laws given in the NT and tell me if you think they all came from God? Read any of ancient Scriptures, including the Bible, and tell me if you think it is a revelation from God? I don't think you do? It is the no-where-to-be-found "original" teachings that you say you believe in... not the writings that people today call their Scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

Read the laws in the Bible and tell me if you honestly believe that they all came from God. Read all the laws given in the NT and tell me if you think they all came from God? Read any of ancient Scriptures, including the Bible, and tell me if you think it is a revelation from God? I don't think you do? It is the no-where-to-be-found "original" teachings that you say you believe in... not the writings that people today call their Scriptures.

I believe that the ancient Scriptures and the Laws in the Bible came from God, through men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is the closest we had to a Revelation from God before the Bab and Baha'u'llah came.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I remember some Baha'i quote about being so pure of thought that a can walk by a pot of gold or the most beautiful woman and not turn his eyes away from looking to God. Who, in real life, does that? And who tries to do that and doesn't turn themselves into basket cases?

In our age when we were brought up in an age that let morals fly out the door, I can say it is a difficult but rewarding journey in trying to achieve that vision given in the Baha'i Writings and one does not become a basket case, but one does face many very difficult lessons in self reflection and have to leave some things done in the past, that one does not now like within themselves.

I can say, I now choose to look away from things I do not need to see and could easily walk by a hill of Gold, if offered it would be good to give it to a greater cause.

I can also say I am much happier trying to live to that standard. It puts morality in a much better perspective.

I am happy work is now worship and I can earn a wage to spend it for the good of family and as many others as I can.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

In our age when we were brought up in an age that let morals fly out the door, I can say it is a difficult but rewarding journey in trying to achieve that vision given in the Baha'i Writings and one does not become a basket case, but one does face many very difficult lessons in self reflection and have to leave some things done in the past, that one does not now like within themselves.

I can say, I now choose to look away from things I do not need to see and could easily walk by a hill of Gold, if offered it would be good to give it to a greater cause.

I can also say I am much happier trying to live to that standard. It puts morality in a much better perspective.

I am happy work is now worship and I can earn a wage to spend it for the good of family and as many others as I can.

Regards Tony

What do you do about the beautiful women? You turn away? You admire their beauty but don't desire them? You start to think about them in a sexual way and quickly start praying to God? And you've never made yourself into a basket case trying to be so spiritually pure as to never desire another women except your wife? Yet, when you think of her and look at her, you then can let yourself go and desire her in every way? If so, then I'm truly amazed. But, I wonder, why did God create all those hormones that make the brain crazy with sexual thoughts?

 

[Trailblazer]

But, I wonder, why did God create all those hormones that make the brain crazy with sexual thoughts?

Here is part of a post written by a Baha'i I know from his forum and I highly respect him. I really liked his post so I asked if I could share it and he gave me permission to share it. The answer to your question is in the last three sentences of his post.

Our spiritual nature cannot be developed except by "dying to self" and "living in God." God has given us a dual nature: one material and one spiritual. Sex is part of the material nature, however much it may be able to play a role in a truly loving relationship. It is not what we are, even though people insist that it is. (Extreme but real example: I read an article in the long ago when the AIDS epidemic had become the big news of the day in which the author, a promiscuous homosexual who had contracted the disease, wrote about how it had affected his life. He stated near the end that he had to take a lot of precautions now to avoid spreading the illness, but that he couldn't give up his promiscuous lifestyle because that was "who he was.") God is calling us to struggle against our lower nature and to become who we truly are: not material beings, not sexual beings, but spiritual beings who are in control of the physical side of our nature and who can thus find true happiness living in conformity with His will. Although not scriptural, there is a possible explanation of why He has made it so hard that I ran across long ago in a Baha'i children's book: Because if it were too easy, it wouldn't be worth anything. Or put another way, because only by being challenged can we really prove our love for God.

 

[rational experiences]

The truth about human life first and origin, our parents Adam/Adam image made in the God stone ground fission science incident says...they both were perfect in form and body.

So it is natural to own the human ability to admire that beauty...for once we both owned it. Hence the psyche does it automatically and hence it is motivated to want to be with what we claim is physical perfection.

Yet as we are also all affected by the reality of non perfection, we can utilise the known conscious lesson for self idealism.

O God the stone owned history says the Sun attacked all O God bodies historically as a rebellion against form existing as a UFO war. That statement was always known by science.

God historically owned burning gas light history before stone. So humans quote in science that God in the past was alive as light gases...the spirit. We make this claim for we live only consciously and alive in a light gas atmosphere. Then we said God the spirit died is entombed in stone as cold clear pressurized gas mass cooling.

What we always knew as a science theme.

When trans mutation temple pyramid science owned converting of stone by radiation into gold mass...for gold was the trade in the ancient days....they obviously should have realized...gold in Earth was when stone was hot and melting and it had cooled. To try to achieve its trans mutative form itself, is a magical belief, then they learnt radiation mass is not any magic.

And God the tomb of removed its historical gas spirit presence, that was idealised consciously in the presence Earth atmospheric gas mass spirits.

So we not only lost it above us in a mass irradiation, it was also physically removed out of the body of God the entombed.

And am empty tomb or sink hole remained.

As we were living on Earth in that event.....radiation changed our genetic bonds...and we lost being perfect in every way. Where and how the abomination theme owns every single living non perfect human condition as a Jesus theme.....how sacrificed OUR spirit was.

And it was human owned...the holiness of the spirit of self and the loss of the spirit of self....it was not ever just about one self. And animal life sacrificed today in UFO EVENTS should have brought that relative answer into the psyche. Yet because human life eats the animal and kills the animal itself...it was very easily and readily just ignored.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What do you do about the beautiful women? You turn away? You admire their beauty but don't desire them? You start to think about them in a sexual way and quickly start praying to God? And you've never made yourself into a basket case trying to be so spiritually pure as to never desire another women except your wife? Yet, when you think of her and look at her, you then can let yourself go and desire her in every way? If so, then I'm truly amazed. But, I wonder, why did God create all those hormones that make the brain crazy with sexual thoughts?

They are indeed good questions CG, if one decides to take the journey, they can see how one's mind can change.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

They are indeed good questions CG, if one decides to take the journey, they can see how one's mind can change.

Regards Tony

I was in my twenties when I was with the Christians. All my friends fell far short of obeying the moral codes set by Jesus. Two of them came to me, of all people, for advice. They were both basket cases. Guilt ridden basket cases. Another Christian said that he believes God gave men "wet dreams" to relieve the pressure of too much "desire". I always wondered if it included wet daydreams? None of this included women. It was like it was assumed they didn't have the same intense sex drive as men. Later, I found out a lot of Christian women did.

 

[Muffled]

You are making it sound like Christianity is for lazy people, who don't want to do the work and save themselves. They want someone else come and save them. I mean honestly, no offence though.

I believe Christianity is for everyone. I believe lazy people are included but that does not exclude people who work hard at it.

I believe there are many people who would like to save themselves but the realist comes to terms with the fact that he hasn't done so in the past and it isn't very likely that things will change.

I believe that makes sense a person who can't swim and gets caught in an under tow needs a lifeguard to save him. Everyone has a tendency to sin and they all need someone to save them from it.

I believe it is great for the ego to think you can get things right and quite often the ego will ignore reality if that reality shows a lack of success.

 

[Muffled]

Why do you think you would know one? If you think it would be really obvious, why did Jesus say the following?

Mark 13:32-37

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cock crowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

I believe the Holy Spirit would let me know.

I don't believe I ever said it would be obvious but those verses are not about a new religion but about the return of Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

I was in my twenties when I was with the Christians. All my friends fell far short of obeying the moral codes set by Jesus. Two of them came to me, of all people, for advice. They were both basket cases. Guilt ridden basket cases. Another Christian said that he believes God gave men "wet dreams" to relieve the pressure of too much "desire". I always wondered if it included wet daydreams? None of this included women. It was like it was assumed they didn't have the same intense sex drive as men. Later, I found out a lot of Christian women did.

I believe sanctification takes time but a person truly guided by the Holy Spirit will be saved from sin and will never be plagued by guilt which is a weapon wielded by Satan.