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Featured Jesus Dying for Our Sins

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Mar 19, 2016.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    In other words the Bible can't be relied on to be accurate, which would include John 17:20-22. Thanks for making this clear. :thumbsup:


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    #161 Skwim, Apr 8, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, 'in the beginning', but Not ' before ' the beginning. Only God was ' before ' the beginning according to Psalms 90:2 ( No beginning for God )
    So, Jesus - Revelation 3:14 B - was Not ' before ' the beginning as God was ' before ' the beginning.

    ( KJV uses the letter ' a ' at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B, but omits the letter ' a' at John 1 although the same Greek grammar rule applies at both verses )

    Didn't Jesus pray at John 17:11 B; John 17:21-23 that his followers be ' one ' as he and his Father are one ? ______ Surely Jesus was Not praying his followers become God.
    However, they could be ' one ' in purpose, unity, faith, agreement, belief, goals, objective, etc.

    Plus, Jesus already stated that his Father is greater than him - John 10:29 A; John 14:28

    I have heard on news broadcasts people say in front of another person " Oh, My God ". They are Not calling or addressing the person in front of them as God.
    So, in that sense doubting Thomas is addressing both God and Jesus at John 20:28 .

    Doesn't the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still think he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12 ?_________

    At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is Not addressed at Almighty God, but as Mighty God. God is a title and Not necessarily the actual person.
    Jesus is to be ' Everlasting Father ' because God gave Jesus the power of the Resurrection 1:18; Acts of the Apostles 24:15
    Jesus will resurrect people as Daniel looked forward - Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13

    Please notice at 2 Peter 1:1 the conjunction word ' and ' from our God ' and ' Savior..... That indicates more than one person
    Please notice at 2 Peter 1:2 .....knowledge of God ' and ' of Jesus. Also indicating more than one person.
    Please notice at 2 Peter 3:18 how Peter concludes his second letter using the word 'and ' in conjunction to Jesus but Not God.
     
  3. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    How do you know that god wasn't three consubstantial persons from the get go? And if he wasn't, just when did god split into the three?

    And the relevance is . . . . . ?

    The inconsistency isn't mine to justify. What you can't do is just blow off the contradictory passages as if they don't exist, at least not if you consider yourself a principled person. But hey, if nothing else they're useful for cherry picking. :) Regard Jesus and god as separate entities when the need arises, and regard them as one in the same when the need arises. Got your pick. ;)


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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    From the ' get go ' Creator is singular - Revelation 4:11. According to Scripture God is un-created - Psalms 90:2
    The relevance is that KJV added a letter 'a' at one verse, and omitted the letter ' a ' at another verse, although the same Greek grammar rule applies at both verses.
    Doing so does Not make Jesus as God. As John wrote: No man has seen God - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12 which is in harmony with Exodus 33:20. People saw Jesus.

    It is Not ' cherry picking ' because the Bible can be studied and researched by subject and topic arrangement.
    The Bible is Not written ABC as a dictionary is. But by comparing what the Bible writers wrote on one subject, or one topic, at a time gives us an harmonious picture of what the Bible really teaches.
     
  5. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Neither says a thing about the nature of god: triune or not.

    But you still haven't shown how this necessarily makes Jesus and god separate entities

    Perhaps not, but there are plenty of passages that do equate Jesus with god.

    Sure it is.

    So what?

    Cherry picking can tend to do that for a person.
     
  6. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    I think that to say that Jesus died for our sins is an exaggeration. It would be more appropriate to say He had a very bad weekend for our sins.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  7. Domenic

    Domenic Active Member

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  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Stick with me and you'll seldom go wrong.


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  9. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Hell wasn't intended for us. Hell was intended for the adversary and his fallen.

    Christ's sacrifice was for all - not some. At the heart of it was perfect love.

    God loved me so much that instead of leaving me to spiritual death, he paved a way for eternal spiritual life.

    It's still a choice as it was in the beginning. He comes to the believer in Spirit because the believer desires Him.

    It's a loving relationship that is nurtured. It's often a roller coaster of ups and downs. It's a daily learning experience.

    It's very much a spiritual relationship. That's the crux of it.
     
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    So what? He uses it for us now.

    "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."
    (Matthew 5:22)

    "I'll show you the one you should be afraid of. Be afraid of the one who has the authority to throw you into hell after killing you. Yes, I tell you, be afraid of him!"

    (Luke 12:5)

    29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
    (Matthew 23:29-33)​

    Sacrifice? Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. and then returning to heaven, is hardly a sacrifice. God, in the guise of a human, made sure he would be crucified because that's what he wanted. That's no sacrifice

    Which is pretty nice I guess, especially after he set you, and everyone else, to go to go hell by default. And personally, I would hardly call such a set-up, "love."

    And what of those who were never aware of the choice because they never got the notice?

    Believe what you need to, but I wouldn't count on selling it to anyone else.


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  11. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    This is the moral equivalent of saying: I did not buy this rifle against humans. It was just for hunting. But I noticed it came handy when I needed to slain people, too.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  12. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Hell is reserved for those who are genuinely wicked and do not desire God. Those who neglect to live in love and sin without repentance.

    Verse 5:22 alone reads as if God throws folks in hell for petty offenses. Matthew 5:22 should be read with it's preceding verse which reads as follows:

    Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=KJV
    The type of anger referenced in Matthew 5:22 is that of hatred, not your typical tiff or annoyance with another. It's the type of anger and disdain for another that lends to murder.

    "I'll show you the one you should be afraid of. Be afraid of the one who has the authority to throw you into hell after killing you. Yes, I tell you, be afraid of him!"
    (Luke 12:5)
    Luke 12:5 should be examined at least with verses 4, 6 & 7 for better context:

    Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12&version=NKJV

    Yes, Christ does make mention of hell to demonstrate the importance of fearing God. Verse 7 is intended as an encouragement. If you explore this Chapter of Luke further, you'll find in verses 22-34 additional encouragement from Christ about not worrying and trusting in God.

    In other words, fear God, not man. In faith, hell is a non issue.

    In Matthew 23, Christ is directly addressing the Pharisees and calling them out on their hypocrisy and evil. These weren't good people.

    I respectfully disagree.

    I believe it was the adversary who set us up to be hell bound, not God.

    Romans 13 describes that when we love, we fulfill the law to the fullest. I don't believe that those who have never had the opportunity to choose are damned.

    I've no desire to "sell" my faith to anyone. I'm merely offering my perspective, which I fully expect folks to take or leave.
     
  13. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I would agree if no way was paved for man to avoid the fate of Satan.
     
  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Come on dawny, stop running around the barn as if it meant something. You made a simple statement

    "Hell wasn't intended for us. Hell was intended for the adversary and his fallen."​

    In effect meaning that hell has no relevance to us mortals. So I said

    "So what? He uses it for us now."

    And now you come out with irrelevancies. Nice I guess, but in as much as they are irrelevant, I can't care. Let's stick to the issue at hand.

    Might want to ask those who "neglect to live in love and sin without repentance" because they haven't heard one has to do so in order to avoid hell.

    So what?

    Fine, but this hardly makes for stimulating conversation here.

    So either god didn't care that he did or god didn't care that he did. Nice god. NOT!


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    #174 Skwim, Apr 10, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  15. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Are there not douche bags who willfully do heinous things without care as to how their actions impact others or what type of repercussions they may be owed? When I think of hell bound people, these are the types that come to mind.

    Let me repeat: They were evil.

    Consider my contributions as irrelevant as you want. My reason for sharing additional scripture was to provide additional context - context which further clarified that hell is reserved for the wicked.

    Clearly, God does care and such care is demonstrated throughout the bible. How stimulating can a conversation be here, Skwim, if this boils down to you digging your heels into the ground, insisting that God sucks?
     
    #175 dawny0826, Apr 10, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
  16. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Cool. Did He prevent entrance to Hell to anyone who is not Satan?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  17. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Anyone hell bound is deserving of such fate.
     
  18. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Who is hell bound?

    Am I hell bound, for instance?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  19. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I've already answered your first question in this thread.

    I don't know your personal spiritual business.
     
  20. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    My spiritual business is that I have no spiritual business. There is no God, no Allah, no Apollo, no Great Juju at the bottom of the sea and no Jesus. These are just products of human's infancy.

    So, am I hell bound?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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