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Jesus drank alcohol

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Merlin, Oct 2, 2005.

  1. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    I want to know if your as old as the number of posts you've made ?

    K
     
  2. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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  3. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    "

    Several kinds of wine are mentioned in the Bible. One was a strong, high alcohol drink that quickly caused its drinker to get intoxicated. Another kind of wine, called gleukos, was called new wine, and was very sweet and quickly fermented. This was the wine that the apostles were accused of drinking on Pentecost (Acts 2: 13). " Chris Allan Myers.

    Cheers

    K
     
  4. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    It tastes of orange and vodka. That's an unmistakeable burn. Strong flavors have nothing to do with the taste of alcohol.

    What do you mean "forbidden to you"?
     
  5. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    I think he means is it a commandment that we can't eat them, or is it against the word of wisdom, etc.
     
  6. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    Ok, I'm just going to dive right in. In order to make this easier to read, I'm not going to put this into a "Quote Bubble" or whatever it's called, because, I personally find those hard to read. Keep in mind, however, that I am quoting this. I'm also going to post each point seperately. Here we go:


    Q: “Didn’t Jesus turn water to wine in Cana for those who were already drunk on wine?”



    Answers:

    Jesus first miracle is recorded in John 2:1-12. This is the proof text passage for most religious people who want to drink intoxicating drinks. However, this passage falls far short of authorizing such. Actually, if this passage is involving intoxicating drink, it takes us farther than we all admit we are allowed to go.

    Let’s assume the supporters of intoxicating drink are correct. This wedding feast was a whole bunch of people who were already drunk on intoxicating wine. Jesus then made some more for them (some suggest what Jesus made was not intoxicating but what the people had already drunk was). That picture has Jesus violating I Peter 4:3, which claims drinking parties are sinful. Finally, can any of us honestly believe Jesus gave more intoxicating drink to people who were already drunk? We all believe being drunk is a sin (Galatians 5:21). Was Jesus helping these people further into their sin? That is simply untenable.

    If this passage is a picture of Jesus being at a wedding feast full of drunkenness and Jesus giving more intoxicating drink to these drinkers, then what right do we have to stop at saying intoxicating drink in moderation is all that is allowed? If Jesus could give more alcohol to drunkards, why can’t we? If He could do it for them, why not us? The reality is, either this is simply an issue of Jesus providing more unfermented wine to those who were not drunk or it calls into question whether or not drunkenness is really sinful.
     
  7. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    There are also some modern assumptions that cloud the Bible issue:

    “Wine is wine is wine and all of it is intoxicating.”


    If I asked you to go to the store and buy me some cider, what would you purchase? Because you know me, you would purchase unfermented apple cider. However, if I was a drinker and you knew I was going to a BYOB New Year’s Eve party, you would run by a package store and pick up some hard cider. Here is a word that we use today which can mean either intoxicating or non-intoxicating drink. We determine which is meant based on the context of the statement.

    In our modern day, the words “wine” and “cider” are different. “Cider” refers to either intoxicating or non-intoxicating juice depending on the context, but, for us, “wine” always refers to an intoxicating drink. Was it that way in the Bible? No.

    No doubt in places the term “wine” referred to intoxicating, alcoholic drink, e.g. Genesis 9:20; 19:32; Proverbs 23:29-31. On the other hand, notice some other places where “wine” could not possibly have referred to intoxicating, alcoholic drink. Isaiah 16:10 spoke of “wine” being treaded out in the presses. It is not possible for what is treaded out in the presses to be fermented and intoxicating. Likewise Jeremiah 40:10-12 referred to gathering in the wine along with the summer fruits. In other words, this was the juice in the grape when brought in from the field. It could not possibly be fermented, alcoholic, intoxicating drink. Jeremiah 48:33 spoke again of wine being in the wine presses. Again, this was the juice as it was pressed out of the grapes and therefore must not have been alcoholic or intoxicating. Understand clearly what this demonstrates. As we strive to see what God has equipped us to do in scripture, it is not enough to find a place where “wine” is consumed with approval. It must be a place where we know it is intoxicating wine and it is consumed with approval.
     
  8. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    Since we are striving to find equipping from the Bible to perform what might be the good work of drinking alcohol in moderation, it stands to reason that we must find some Bible verses that demonstrate a moderate consumption of intoxicating drink with God’s approval, either by command, approved example or necessary inference. How does the Bible present consuming intoxicating drink? I have found 21 passages that clearly speak of drinking intoxicating wine. They can be classed in two categories: negative and positive.

    Passages that are negative:

    Genesis 9:21; 19:32; Numbers 6:3; I Samuel 1:14; 25:36; Psalm 60:3; 75:8; 78:65; Proverbs 20:1; 23:30; 31:4; Isaiah 5:11, 22; 24:9; 28:1; 56:12; Jeremiah 23:9; 51:7; Joel 1:5; Ephesians 5:18.

    These passages link intoxicating wine with sin, judgment, loss of control and folly. Perhaps the strongest of these is Proverbs 20:1, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler …” More on that verse in a few moments.

    Passages that are Positive:

    Only one passage clearly mentions consuming intoxicating drink in a remotely positive light—Proverbs 31:6-7. Lemuel’s mother tells him to let the man who is perishing and whose life is bitter to drink to forget his trouble and sorrow.

    Thus the one who is dying and in great pain, as the term for “bitter” is defined by Strong’s Enhanced Lexicon, can consume intoxicating drink in order to forget the trauma he is experiencing. At most we have a positive view of alcohol for medicinal use, used as a painkiller here, just as morphine is used today. We would all say it is lawful to give morphine to the man who is dying and whose heart is bitter, that is, in pain. Would we take that to mean that a little morphine with our supper, taken in moderation is scriptural?

    Considering the above, I find us hard pressed to come up with a command, approved example or necessary inference authorizing the consumption of intoxicating drinks even in moderation. This alone, for a people who demand Jesus’ authority for all we do in word or deed (Colossians 3:17), ought to be enough to cause us to refrain from intoxicating drink and to teach others to do so.
     
  9. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    There are three passages in Proverbs that help us in this discussion.

    Proverbs 20:1 says, “Wine is a mocker and strong drink a brawler, and whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.” Many people focus on the latter half of this verse and think anything less than intoxication is not spoken against. But three things are addressed in this verse: wine, strong drink and intoxication. All of them are condemned. Wine is a mocker, that is, it is arrogant, puffed up and scoffing. Yet, some view this verse as saying we can drink a little bit of the mocker. Strong drink is raging or a brawler. That is, strong drink makes a loud, raging, thundering, clamorous noise. According to Ephesians 4:31 we are to put clamoring away from us, but in Proverbs 20:1 we are allowed to drink a little of it? Some of our brethren practice with this verse what they condemn the Baptists for doing with Mark 16:16. That is, using the last half of the verse to deny the first half.

    Amazingly enough, Proverbs 23:29-35 is used to justify the moderate drink. We all know this passage says the one who lingers long over wine has woe and is therefore condemned. But the proverbialist also defines a second man who has woe: the one who tastes the mixed wine (according to the KJV it is the one who searches it out). In other words, the man who has woe is the one who even looks for some of this intoxicating stuff in order to drink it. Then to drive the point home, the Proverbialist says don’t even look at wine. I am consistently amazed, that some brethren read Proverbs 23:29-30 and come to the conclusion that it is right to drink a little of this intoxicating wine. When Solomon wrote these words, he came to the conclusion that you shouldn’t even look at it.

    Finally, Proverbs 31:4-5 says it is not for kings to drink wine. Notice, this passage doesn’t say it is not for kings to get drunk. It says they should not drink it. Why? Because if you drink wine or strong drink, you might forget what is decreed. That is exactly what alcohol does, it affects our judgment, willpower, attention and inhibitions. I remind you that we are in the same position as this king. We are a royal priesthood (I Peter 2:9), reigning with Christ. It is not for us to drink intoxicants, lest we forget what is decreed. Lest one wants to claim he is only drinking a little and it is not affecting him. Allow me to share with you a chart taken from Listen Magazine, reprinted in a booklet called Sipping Saints by Rick Lanning. We all know that .10 BAC (blood alcohol content) is legally drunk and you will be arrested if caught drinking at that point. For a man who weighs 220 pounds it will take on average 5 12oz cans of beer to become legally drunk. However, at .01 BAC, the alcohol in that beer already affects the Frontal Lobe of the brain which causes “Removal of inhibitions, Loss of self-control, Weakening of willpower, Feeling of well-being, False confidence, Impaired judgment, Loquaciousness, Dulling of attention.” Do you know how many 12oz cans of beer it takes to get a 220lb man to .01 BAC? Only ½ of a can. Perhaps, considering this list, we understand why Lemuel’s mother said not to drink it at all. It affects our ability to remember and follow what was decreed before we even finish one drink.
     
  10. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    “I am only drinking one to help me relax and it doesn’t impair my judgment.”



    The constant plea from the moderate drinker is “I am not getting drunk. I won’t get drunk. And what little I am having doesn’t impair my judgment.” This is basically the same type of argument used to deny I Corinthians 15:33, “Bad communications corrupt good morals.” Though God has said bad communications corrupt good morals, many today want to claim bad communication doesn’t affect them. In like manner, though God said wine is a mocker and it is not for us to drink lest we forget what is decreed, some believe they are an exception to God’s rule. Because for them, the small amount they drink doesn’t affect them.

    Have you ever heard anyone say, “If you think you are crazy, you aren’t. Because crazy people never question their sanity.” The fact that one believes his judgment is not impaired when under the influence of a mind-altering narcotic (classed by Canada’s Addiction Research Foundation as a sedative/hypnotic drug) holds absolutely no weight. The man or woman who has imbibed this drug is the least qualified to determine his state of judgment.

    I remind you that according to scientific study and testing, alcohol begins working on your brain the moment it is absorbed into the blood stream. Though different organizations might have slightly varying numbers, without one exception, all that I have read claims that even the lowest of BAC levels produces impaired judgment. I remind you of the sermon where I quote from the Listen Magazine chart. At .01 BAC, after just half a can of beer for a man who is 220 lbs., alcohol begins to remove your inhibitions. That is, it affects your conscience, that part of you that says you shouldn’t do something you know is wrong. At this same level you begin to lose your self-control. As Christians, we are supposed to be increasing our self-control (II Peter 1:5-8). Our willpower begins to weaken. We can easily see the danger for our souls if our willpower to overcome sin is weakened even a little. We begin to have a sense of well-being. That, of course, is why we are so convinced what we drink doesn’t affect us. The drug itself causes us to believe we are better off than we are. We begin to have a false confidence. In other words, due to the affects of this drug, even after one drink we begin to think more of ourselves than we ought to (Romans 12:3). Our judgment is impaired. Of course, that again is why we think our judgment is not impaired. We are not able to assess our own abilities anymore, even after only one drink and even when we don’t realize it.

    Additionally, not only is alcohol a drug, it is an addictive drug, which, by the way, is more addictive to teenagers than adults. According to the Connecticut Clearinghouse, a program funded by the Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services, an adult may take 5 to 15 years to become addicted while a teenager will only take six months to two years (www.ctclearinghouse.org; reproducible fact sheet Why Adolescents Should Not Use Alcohol At All). The fact that alcohol is an addictive drug, makes it increasingly difficult to support even in moderation. An addictive drug, by its very nature, causes us to become tolerant of the amount we are taking and crave more. Notice what the Addiction Research Foundation says, “Psychological dependence on alcohol may occur with regular use of even relatively moderate daily amounts. It may also occur in people who consume alcohol under only certain conditions, such as before and during social occasions. This form of dependence refers to a craving for alcohol’s psychological effects, although not necessarily in amounts that produce serious intoxication.” What psychological affects is the moderate drinker looking for? Isn’t it obvious? The moderate drinker begins to crave the psychological affects that occur with moderate drinking, the loss of inhibitions, the relaxation, the destressing, the feeling of well-being and the self-confidence.


    Considering all of this, can one seriously claim one drink doesn’t hurt? Only if he lives by the world’s standards as represented in the pamphlet, What Every Teenager Should Know About Alcohol, quoted in the sermon. That worldly standard is we only have to stay “relatively sober.” If that is all we must do, then drinking a narcotic that immediately attacks our sobriety is justified as long as someone out there is more drunk than we are. However, that is not the standard. The standard is sobriety, period.
     
  11. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    In conclusion, if you still desire to maintain that drinking a small amount of a narcotic drug is lawful and want to press objections to claim we all have the right and the scriptural authority to drink a can of beer, a glass of wine or a shot of whiskey in the name of Jesus Christ (Colossians 3:17) and that we can do so to God’s glory (I Corinthians 10:31), please consider carefully and prayerfully why making such a claim is so important to you. If what I have presented is Scriptural, then making that claim can cost people their souls.

    You can get more information here: I hope this settles it. If it doesn't I don't know what else to say to you, though I will be continue debating if you insist upon it.
     
  12. sprinkled wings

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    Wow, CGirl. very well said! i agree w/ U!!! rock on:jam:
     
  13. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    Pickles and spicey foods like curries
     
  14. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    How do you know this?
     
  15. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    Lu 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new; for he says, ‘The old is good.’" How did he know if he never drank it?
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    good one! - But, may I ask a favour of you ? - when replying to a post, would you address your reply to the poster (so that I know to whom your comment is addressed ? - this thread is like one of those dreadful jigsaw puzzles!:D )
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    It would be a serious mistake, however, to jump to the conclusion that because wine in itself was not prohibited one could indulge in it to excess . Excess is wrong and harmful, regardless of what it may be, and the Scriptures condemn excess in food (gluttony) as severely as they do excess in drinking; —Deut. 21:20; Prov. 23:20, 21

    Not only do the Scriptures indicate that there should be moderation in the use of wine, but that, as with every purpose under the sun, there is a time to drink and a time to refrain from drinking. When should one refrain from drinking? The Levite priests were commanded not to drink wine when serving before Jehovah in the tabernacle. (Lev. 10:9) They were not to be under the influence of wine when Jesus made more wine it does not mean that they were already drunk maybe they did not provide enough wine so needed some more .

     
  18. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Dude, I wrote a whole page on how this is known. Didn't you read it?
     
  19. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Where is this indicated?
     
  20. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The JayDub translation seems pretty clear on the fact that they were sloshed.
     
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