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Jesus' Divinity and the Literalist Dilemma

Wandering Monk

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Christians believe that Jesus is God and that God knows all.
Since Jesus believed that Adam was the first man, Adam was truly the first man.
​
Now evolutionary biology and genetics show that the first man predated Adam by hundreds of thousands of years, the implications for the belief that Jesus is God are:

God doesn't really know all, or
Jesus was not God because he erred about Adam. His belief in Adam as the first man WOULD however be perfectly in line with first century Jewish beliefs.​
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Wandering Monk said:
Depends on what denomination you are in.
Click to expand...
The other rabbis disagreed with Jesus on practically everything. Although I presume that Jesus would say, adam was the first human, 'generalizing', to "jewish beliefs", doesn't work.

The followers of Jesus, would have already 'agreed' on various beliefs, and the other rabbis, disagreed with them, too.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Wandering Monk said:
Christians believe that Jesus is God and that God knows all.
Since Jesus believed that Adam was the first man, Adam was truly the first man.
​
Now evolutionary biology and genetics show that the first man predated Adam by hundreds of thousands of years, the implications for the belief that Jesus is God are:

God doesn't really know all, or
Jesus was not God because he erred about Adam. His belief in Adam as the first man WOULD however be perfectly in line with first century Jewish beliefs.​
Click to expand...
Adam was the first man of the species of man there is today. The earth was populated and then destroyed before Adam was created. That explains how very old fossils have been found.
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
Wandering Monk said:
...Now evolutionary biology and genetics show that the first man predated Adam by hundreds of thousands of years...
Click to expand...

Now, there is no good reason to believe that is true. :)

But, I think Bible doesn’t really teach that Jesus is the one and only true God, because:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works….
John 14:10-11

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49

"Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
John 5:19

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

And actually, the Bible itself says Jesus doesn’t know all:

But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt. 24:36

I recommend to believe what Jesus says. :)
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
1213 said:
Now, there is no good reason to believe that is true. :)

But, I think Bible doesn’t really teach that Jesus is the one and only true God, because:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works….
John 14:10-11

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49

"Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
John 5:19

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

And actually, the Bible itself says Jesus doesn’t know all:

But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt. 24:36

I recommend to believe what Jesus says. :)
Click to expand...
Jesus is God in a representative or agent sense but absolutely NOT in the trinitarian sense.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Desert Snake said:
Why is that? Aside from whatever 'trinitarian' might mean to you, why isn't Jesus god?
Click to expand...
Jesus has a God. he calls Him "my God".
Now, because trinitarianism is false, they have to somehow account for Jesus having a God if he himself is God.
One explanation is that Jesus has a God in his human nature which makes Jesus to be two persons or personalities.
Jesus is only one person and a nature does not have a God people have a God.
Some trinitarians even suggest that Jesus has two distinct minds and wills.
But the truth according to Scripture is that Jesus represents God. For example, Jesus says "I have come in my Father's name".
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
LightofTruth said:
Jesus has a God. he calls Him "my God".
Now, because trinitarianism is false, they have to somehow account for Jesus having a God if he himself is God.
One explanation is that Jesus has a God in his human nature which makes Jesus to be two persons or personalities.
Jesus is only one person and a nature does not have a God people have a God.
Some trinitarians even suggest that Jesus has two distinct minds and wills.
But the truth according to Scripture is that Jesus represents God. For example, Jesus says "I have come in my Father's name".
Click to expand...
The problem with not calling Jesus, god, is you get a kind of possession, scenario.

However that aside, Jesus is called Lord, for example, the same name as 'Lord'

2 Corinthians 6:18
[Lord Almighty

That is an example, of that, and,

Matthew 22:37
[Lord your God

Jesus doesn't correct anyone when they call Him a Deific name or Title.

•
There is a mistake in thinking that the 'Lord' deific nature names\titles are somehow differentiated, they aren't.
•
To put this another way, more direct to how these ideas are usually considered, if Jesus isn't god, then using the Christian Bible, you will not derive the same deity, as Judaism. Which is probably what most believe is occuring, when they do that.
 
L

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Desert Snake said:
The problem with not calling Jesus, god, is you get a kind of possession, scenario.

However that aside, Jesus is called Lord, for example, the same name as 'Lord'

2 Corinthians 6:18
[Lord Almighty

That is an example, of that, and,

Matthew 22:37
[Lord your God

Jesus doesn't correct anyone when they call Him a Deific name or Title.

•
There is a mistake in thinking that the 'Lord' deific nature names\titles are somehow differentiated, they aren't.
•
To put this another way, more direct to how these ideas are usually considered, if Jesus isn't god, then using the Christian Bible, you will not derive the same deity, as Judaism. Which is probably what most believe is occuring, when they do that.
Click to expand...
Jesus is referred to as Lord and God in both the O.T. prophecies and the N.T. This is because all power in both heaven and earth have been given to him by his God and Father.
The angel of the LORD was referred to as both LORD and God because he was sent of God to represent God.
Now Jesus has been made greater than all the angels.
It's a very simple concept and clears up much of the absurdities created by Trinitarians.
 
Wandering Monk

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
This thread is NOT for trinitarian debate. It is about the implications to Christian doctrine if Jesus is wrong about the existence of Adam.

If this trinitarian debate continues, those posts will be reported as off topic.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Wandering Monk said:
Christians believe that Jesus is God and that God knows all.
Since Jesus believed that Adam was the first man, Adam was truly the first man.
​
Now evolutionary biology and genetics show that the first man predated Adam by hundreds of thousands of years, the implications for the belief that Jesus is God are:

God doesn't really know all, or
Jesus was not God because he erred about Adam. His belief in Adam as the first man WOULD however be perfectly in line with first century Jewish beliefs.​
Click to expand...
The above is not a problem for those of us who are Christian and also understand and accept "allegory".
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
Desert Snake said:
Why?
Click to expand...

Because:

"If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
1213 said:
Because:

"If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63
Click to expand...
Ok, you just wrote more quotes from the Bible. You didn't say why we need or should believe them.
 
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