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Featured Jesus being michael

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Were in the bible does it say right out jesus is michael:confused:?
     
  2. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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  3. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Living life in silence, observing.

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    Jesus was only one person. He did not portray being different human beings, that is only people later on who think they have an idea that Jesus must have been many different people.
     
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  4. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Heretic! :eek::D
     
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  5. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    Arch angel. .. . Chief messenger
    Michael.. .. . Who is like God
    The chief messenger who is like God.
    ...................
    Who leads the heavenly armies and casts satan down from heaven.... Michael.
    ....................
    Who is the Prince of Gods people.... Michael.
    ...................
     
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is indicated in scripture though it is not specifically stated.

    Who Is Michael the Archangel? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    It is hotly debated by those in Christendom because of the trinity doctrine. If Jesus is God, then he can’t be Michael. But there is more evidence for Jesus being Michael than there is for him being God.
     
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  7. calm

    calm Active Member

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    The book of Daniel 10:13 KJV says:
    but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    If it says "one of the" then there must be at least three Chief Angels. So he's not leading all the angels as you think, he's just leading a part. Each archangel has his own troop, with their own special task. And the task of Michael and his troop is to pay attention to the people of God.
    Michael is not like God. No man on earth and no angel in heaven is like God. The name "Michael" does not mean that Michael is like God, but that nobody is like God. This name is a God-fearing name. If someone would ask a believer, "Who is like God?" he would answer "Nobody". And that is exactly what the name Michael wants to say. For example, if I give someone a name that means "Who is like God?", then I don't want to say that this person is like God. (God forbid) But I want to symbolize that nobody is like God.
    If the name "Michael" would say that the angel Michael is like God, then his name would mean "Like God" or "I am like God" but of course it does not.

    The Bible clearly says that nobody is like God.

    Jeremiah 10:6 KJV
    Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD;

    Exodus 8:10 KJV
    Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

    2 Samuel 7:22 KJV
    Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee,
     
  8. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Not everything comes from the canon. For example the canon doesn't provide definitions for commonly used words such as 'Worship', 'Holy' and 'Prayer' yet people use these terms. Many, many things are simply not mentioned or explained such as marriage. Just because it doesn't say Michael is Jesus doesn't mean that he isn't. You have to begin by asking who Michael is and who Jesus is and then determine if those are the same, don't you?
     
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  9. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was created in the womb of Mary after the semen of her half brother Joseph, was introduced into her uterus. Joseph and Mary, the biological parents of the man Jesus, were both sired by Heli/Alexander Helios.

    Sometime after he had turned 30, he was Baptised and born of the spirit of the Lord that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son THIS DAY I have begotten thee, or as it is said in Hebrews 5; "You are my son, this day I have become your Father."

    The messenger of the Lord, told the 14 year old Mary, that her son would be a King as his ancestor King David was.

    So, those who believe that Jesus is Michael the arch-angel, must believe that the arch-angel Michel was a descendant of King David.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The words used in Hebrew are...."chief"

    "riʼshôwn, ree-shone'; or רִאשֹׁן riʼshôn; from H7221; first, in place, time or rank (as adjective or noun):—ancestor, (that were) before(-time), beginning, eldest, first, fore(-father) (-most), former (thing), of old time, past."

    and..."prince"

    "sar, sar; from H8323; a head person (of any rank or class):—captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord,(-task-)master, prince(-ipal), ruler, steward." (Strongs Concordance)

    Jesus is a creation of his Father and because he is firstborn, he has rank and position that no one else occupies. He is THE Archangel......there is only one. He is commander of all the Angels....and so is Michael.

    "The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called “archangel.” (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as “one of the foremost princes”; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by “the prince of the royal realm of Persia.” Michael was called “the prince of [Daniel’s] people,” “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.”—Jude 9.

    Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God."

    Michael — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Was the name a question or a statement?

    And you would be correct....there is no one in existence like Jehovah.....but then Jesus/Michael is just like his Father in thought, purpose and personality. (John 14:9)

    "In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (John 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Acts 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Revelation 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator."


    So for us this is a belief, not a doctrine because there is no clear statement.....
     
  11. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's true

    Jesus and Michael are both mentioned side by side in Revelation and not connected.
    Jesus and Michael are both mentioned iside by side n Jude and not connected.

    Here's the problem
    In Thessalonians, Jesus descends with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God.
    Jesus comes with the archangel and his army of angels and the trumpet of God
    Doesn't mean Jesus is an archangel just because he comes with the angels and their battle cry.
    Doesn't mean Jesus is a trumpet because a trumpet of God blows.

    Where did it come from?
    Started with the 7th day Adventists
    then since originally JW's started as an Adventist splinter group they carried over some of those views.
    It makes it tough on JW's since they don't like to admit they borrowed lots of views from someone else
    and quite a few views from Adventists.
     
    #11 whirlingmerc, Nov 10, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  12. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm let's look at Jude



    Jude
    Chapter 1


    1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

    2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

    3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

    9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

    12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

    13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

    17But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

    19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

    20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

    21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    22And of some have compassion, making a difference:

    23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen



    For several reasons I would not take Michael as Jesus in this chapter, namely,

    1) Jesus in the Old testament in this was called 'the Lord' as in vs 5
    5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how tat the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
    So ... why switch to Michael and not continue saying 'the lord'

    2) no explicit connection between Jesus and Michael... which is odd if its so important ... and none made in Revelation where they are also side by side

    3) Michael would not rebuke Satan. Jesus did rebuke Satan

    4) there is more of a connection with Jesus and God in the last verse ( in fact in both vs 4 and vs 25) only Lord God and God our Savior

    I just don't think it's true that Jesus is Michael. I understand it is a 7th day adventist view that JWs inherited as a splinter group from them.
     
    #12 whirlingmerc, Nov 10, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In Daniel 12:1 Michael comes before the end as the Prince of Peace who stands up for his people, therefore it makes him the same as the Messiah.

    God chose David as he had a heart like his (1 Samuel 13:14), and said sit at my right (Psalms 110), plus called him begotten (Psalms 2:7)...

    So the question should be first is David like Michael as he had a heart like his, and Michael means 'he who is like God'?

    Then did David become Yeshua (Psalms 89:19-21 = Isaiah 52:13-14 - marred should be anointed), then David comes back as Michael the Messiah?

    In other words contextually everyone will know the King who returns is from Heaven, thus the name Michael is what people will understand him to be.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  14. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    "Then did David become Yeshua (Psalms 89:19-21 = Isaiah 52:13-14 - marred should be anointed), "

    David was a type of both Christ and believer in Christ
    would be the answer in part

    The Babylonian exile would also be a type of the death of Christ

    but...

    in Revelation 12 there is mention of Michael, the Lamb and Jesus
    There is strong connection of the lamb being Jesus in Revelation explicitly made by John the Baptist and Revelation.
    There is no explicit connection of Michael as Jesus not in Revelation. Not in Jude although the names are even in close priximity
     
    #14 whirlingmerc, Nov 10, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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  15. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    St. Michael is the third prong to the trinity, the Holy Spirit of you may. Totally seperate from God and Christ, who are also both different entities.
     
  16. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    If it says "one of the" then there must be at least three Chief Angels. So he's not leading all the angels as you think, he's just leading a part.
    In Revelation chapter 12 it is Michael who leads the Angels... it does not say a division of Angels.
    ............................................
    Each archangel has his own troop, with their own special task

    A scriptural reference naming or even indicating that there are more than one CHIEF angel is needed here. You are just making stuff up.
    ................................................
    . And the task of Michael and his troop is to pay attention to the people of God.
    Yes! Michael is the Great Prince of Gods people........ who becomes the King in due time? The Prince!
    ...................................................
    Michael is not like God.
    Michael is a Perfect Spirit Creature who stood firm against the rebellion of Satan. If he remained in Good Standing it can only be because he reflects the nature of the Father and is therefore "like" God.
    What is there about Michael that is NOT like God, apart from the omnipotence and stuff?

    Surely the Arch Angel Michael, who actually spoke to man as if he WAS God (The burning Bush) would be the closest being in ALL creation to the Fathers personality, he is given the prime rank after all.
    .....................................................
    No man on earth and no angel in heaven is like God.
    Only if you are referring to the omnipotent. omnipresent aspect. The Angelic Host, with Michael at its head, are fully in line with the Fathers will and reflect HIS goodness in their perfection. Jesus whole point was to teach us to be LIKE the Father. The Angels also aspire to be LIKE the Father and since they have been tested and found faithful they by definition must be LIKE the Father.
    ..........................................................

    The name "Michael" does not mean that Michael is like God, but that nobody is like God. This name is a God-fearing name. If someone would ask a believer, "Who is like God?" he would answer "Nobody". And that is exactly what the name Michael wants to say.

    I have no idea why you have added a question mark. Who is like God, means exactly what it says, that's why Michael is raised to the highest position in creation, he not only leads the Heavenly faithful but is given authority over Jehovah's earthly people as well, first as Prince then as King.
    .................................................

    For example, if I give someone a name that means "Who is like God?", then I don't want to say that this person is like God. (God forbid) But I want to symbolize that nobody is like God.
    If the name "Michael" would say that the angel Michael is like God, then his name would mean "Like God" or "I am like God" but of course it does not.

    WHAT is wrong with (God forbid) being LIKE God? Isn't that the aim of every faithful creature, to be more and more like God. To say some one is LIKE God is not some sort of blasphemy it is the ultimate accolade.

    If we as imperfect humans are told to be LIKE God and to mold ourselves in HIS image as much as we can, how much more so would the Perfect Angels be a reflection of Their Father, how much more so would the highest Angel be the MOST like His Father.
    If you were to name the creation that was CLOSEST to the personality and essence of the Father, that you would want to set up as an example to the rest of creation of the way to please the Father who would you pick?

    ..................................................
     
  17. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    2) no explicit connection between Jesus and Michael... which is odd if its so important
    The title Arch (Chief) Angel (Messenger) and Jesus being God's spokesman would seem to show some connection.
    Who do you think "The Angel of the Lord" was in the burning bush account?
    ...................................
    ... and none made in Revelation where they are also side by side
    Nowhere are they side by side in Revelation.
    What we actually see is Michael initiating the end by casting satan from the heavens, then he disappears from the account as the Kingdom manifests and is never mentioned as Michael again, the account shifts to the coronation of the Christ and the reign of the King. A prince of Israel, as Michael was, becomes the Heavenly King and the Angelic and earthly realms are united by the Kingship of Christ.

    Why does Michael lead the assault that casts Satan out of Heaven but is nowhere in the Armageddon account.... it is Jesus with the sword coming out of his mouth leading the heavenly hosts against the nations.
    Why was it not Jesus who cast satan out of Heaven... why did Michael get that job but not the final battle?

    .............................................
     
  18. calm

    calm Active Member

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    That's not exactly true. In Revelation 12:7 it says "Michael and his angels".
    Haven't you read Daniel 10:13? KJV
    but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    If it says "one of the" then there must be at least three Chief Angels.
    As I said before, there are several Chief Angels and each of these angels has its own army; that's what the bible teaches. That there are several armies is confirmed in Revelation 19:14.
    ___

    And If you really believe that Michael is like God, then believe it.
    But the bible clearly says something else.
    Jeremiah 10:6 KJV
    Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD;

    Exodus 8:10 KJV
    Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

    2 Samuel 7:22 KJV
    Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee,




     
  19. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    So there are several Arch Angels... that's what the Bible teaches is it? Only One arch Angel is ever mentioned in scripture, the deduction that the other Princes must also be Arch Angels is just you conflating the two positions.But i think the burning bush question which you never addressed is actually the key.
    Who is "The Angel of the Lord" who speaks as Gods mouthpiece?
    Also why is it not Michael the Prince of Israel, and the one who transmitted the law to Israel, who is sent to give Mary the news of the messiah's coming?
    ......................................

    This being Like God thing has got you so defensive. The verses you quote are not saying what you think they say, it is not a universal statement covering ALL scenarios, it is pointing out that there is only ONE almighty God and in that sense NONE is like him.

    The fact that we are made in Gods Image shows that WE are at least somewhat LIKE God in a certain sense doesn't it.
    The fact that Jesus instructs us to be as LIKE God as possible also shows that being LIKE God is the goal we are to aim at isn't it?

    Although we take Michael as the name of the Arch Angel it would be better to see the name as an identifier of character and trait, that is really what the names in the Bible refer too so we should view it that way. Surely it is not a stretch to then see Michael as the "creation" that most reflects His Fathers personality and nature to its logical limit and therefor to be held up as an example of one who is like God.

    See i put Jesus in the position of being the creation that we are to emulate to be LIKE God but your trinity gets in the way of that by turning the Son into God. Jesus being the pre-existent Michael transferred to human life as Jesus then covers BOTH realms by having the SAME being as the example to follow in being LIKE God.

    I would like to know why the Arch Angel Michael being LIKE God is such an outrageous claim... do you not believe that he would be a reflection of the Fathers personality,he was put in charge of Gods people on earth wasn't he?
    If NONE can be like God then why are we told to...........
    Eph 5:5 So try to be like God, because you are his own dear children.
    Ephesians 4:22-24 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

    The New self is to be molded in the Likeness of God, an impossibility if we view it as you do.
     
  20. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; See Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

    Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS, which he shall speak in MY NAME, I will punish, etc.

    Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, concerning the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

    Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

    Michael is not the man Jesus.
     
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