Jesus as the Lightbringer?

[Adramelek]

Minimum wage should be livable especially when you're lucky to get even a minimum wage job. Even with such jobs you usually need someone inside to push for you.

Ok, what ever, just don't associate me with this catholic guy Sean Hannity!!

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ok, what ever, just don't associate me with this catholic guy Sean Hannity!!

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

Lol, man. Point well taken.

 

[nash8]

Personally, I'm a socialist. I dumped that LaVeyan "might is right/trample the weak" nonsense a while back. It's just a bit too negative, to me. I don't see such views as intrinsic to the Left Hand Path, and are really just the product of American free market capitalist ideologies and LaVey latched onto it as a reaction to the hippies. To me, to be on the LHP is to simply follow your own Will/intuition/heart/whatever you want to call it, free from dogma, basically.

That's exactly how I feel. Honestly there is no specific LHP. LHP just means you take the path less traveled as Frost would say.

You slay me nash8, what do you think the minimum wage should be? It was never meant to be a living wage but rather a beginning wage. Also, who the hell is this Sean Hannity?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

LOL, you slay me sir. The minimum wage to me, should be the minimum wage that a person can live on and can be considered "not in poverty". If you are working a full time job, you should not be living in poverty in my opinion. A two child household with two parents working full-time minimum wage jobs live below the poverty line. That does not sit right with me, and it definitely does not promote conditions that promote people bettering themselves.

Did you see the "budget" McDonalds gave to their minimum wage employees in order to "save money". It included no money for heat, it included a 20$ budget for healthcare although McDonalds minimum healthcare plan costs 50$, oh yeah and it included working a second full time job, in order to save 100$ a month.
Back in the day it was different, you could be an enterprising young lad and start a mom and pop grociery store and make you own way. Now Wal-mart has eliminated almost any chance of that in any remotely populated area. And you can say the same thing for almost any other "essential" industry.

The only way you can make it on your own nowadays is if you come up with an ingenious idea, which lets face it, the majority of the population does not have the ability to do. Otherwise, you are forced to submit to the corporate heirarchy, and sacrifice the well being of others to drive some billionaires profit margin.
Then you add to this, corporations sending the majority of manufacturing jobs, which were the heart of the American economy, overseas to countries which enforce sub-standard labor practices, in order to reduce manufacturing costs and evade taxes, thus further increasing their profit margin and taking money out of the common man trying to better himselfs pocket. Sorry, when American corporations are sending manufacturing jobs to places were you can't even take a day off work by killing yourself, something is wrong. (Look up suicide nets around Apple factories in China if you don't know what I'm talking about). We have seen it over and over again in our society, corporations commit horrendus crimes, and are slapped on the wrist. Where if me or you where to commit the same crime we would be spending the rest of our life in prison.
You said earlier that you believe in equality of opportunity, but their is absolutely no such thing in modern American society.

I agree with you that there needs to be massive welfare reform, but what you fail to realize is that welfare was never intended to help people out, it was intended to keep people down, so why would the elite seek to change a system that is working just as it was designed to work?

In any regard, if you think that welfare system is what is bankrupting America, you are sadly mistaken sir. Try the massive defense budget that mysteriously "loses" 3 trillion dollars. The social security system that is in all reality, nothing more than a pyramid scam, and is utterly and completely unconstitutional, even the guy that proposed the program didn't think there was any chance that it would get passed. Those two programs right there account for nearly 50% of yearly tax income. You add to that, the outsourcing of American manufacturing jobs, and that's where all America's money is going to.

If you believe welfare programs are the reasons why your taxes are so high, go do some research on tax income and how much money your losing each year from welfare as opposed to the utterly inefficient DOD, or the even more ineffecient social security program. The welfare deception is propaganda used by Fox News associates such as the aforementioned "Sean Hannity". /End rant

Ok, what ever, just don't associate me with this catholic guy Sean Hannity!!

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

And I actually associated Buddha with Sean Hannity lol.

 

[crossfire]

Political views can help gauge a person's general orientation whether they place a greater importance on self responsibility (right) or much more on external factors (left). But not always. Buddha was very Republican - everything fell on you, and even stuff like freak accidents were the results of your karma.

Actually, no. Buddha associated different types of karma, the most important one being "karma is intention," which builds patterns within your mind, that affects your mind. Buddhism recognizes the chaos created by the complexity of the interconnectedness of everything--which can result in "freak accidents" that are not a result of your intentions/actions (karma.)

 

[crossfire]

No, in my opinion it creates the exact opposite. Clinging to duality and/or singularity by themselves creates non-receptiveness. If you cannot accept that some things are different, yet on some level they are all the same than you are not being receptive in my opinion.

That is what I said.

I think Crossfire takes pride in confusing her foes with simple and vague, yet intellectually and spiritually deep perceptions of reality. Thus why her title reads "nebulous mystic". A very well suited name for yourself I might add, but not one that I would say lends itself well to intellectual debate.

Where did this "foes" business come from? I'm here to try to understand the western view. Intellectually, I understand the eastern view better than the western view, but my dreams rarely contain eastern symbolism--they contain more Jungian and western symbolism. Hence, my need to try to understand the western view.

Differences and oneness are both really there in my opinion, it just depends on how deep you want to go.

Agreed.

How can one say that any level of deepness is more or less real than any other?

One way of testing this is whether you cling to the view or not. Illusion needs to be propped up. Truth can stand on its own. (But truth can be covered or obscured.)

As with anything you have to have balance in my opinion. Passion and emotional intensity definetly increase spirtual endeavors in my opinion, but if you allow them to create distortion within yourself because of that intensity, then you are more likely to lose focus which is the other important half of spiritual work. My belief is that true spiritual prowess lies within the ability to generate large amounts of emotional intensity while not allowing them to disrupt focus.

I agree.

 

[nash8]

Actually, no. Buddha associated different types of karma, the most important one being "karma is intention," which builds patterns within your mind, that affects your mind. Buddhism recognizes the chaos created by the complexity of the interconnectedness of everything--which can result in "freak accidents" that are not a result of your intentions/actions (karma.)

I've never heard of this "freak accident" karma in buddhism, what is it's "label" if you don't object to labeling it for the sake of promoting knowledge.

That is what I said.

I don't remember what you said in the first place, but I don't remember interpreting it as what I said.

Where did this "foes" business come from? I'm here to try to understand the western view. Intellectually, I understand the eastern view better than the western view, but my dreams rarely contain eastern symbolism--they contain more Jungian and western symbolism. Hence, my need to try to understand the western view.

I was joking, I put a smiley face after I said that didn't I? Or if you wanna look at it from a western view. One of the labels associated with the word foe, is one who is opposes on principle.
Foe - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
You were opposing another based on principle so that person would be your "foe".

Western symbolism is centered on seperate parts of the whole. Where as Eastern symbolism is centered on the whole rather than the pieces that form it.

If you reject the notion of labels, understanding the many different facets that one label can contain or represent, then you will have a hard time understanding western symbolism in my opinion. Delve into the dissection my friend.

One way of testing this is whether you cling to the view or not. Illusion needs to be propped up. Truth can stand on its own. (But truth can be covered or obscured.)

Give me an example of truth that stands on its own, other than a mathematical example cuz that's cheating.

 

[crossfire]

I've never heard of this "freak accident" karma in buddhism, what is it's "label" if you don't object to labeling it for the sake of promoting knowledge.

lol. Nibbana is said to be totally uncaused.
Essay on karma
Essay on chaos

I don't remember what you said in the first place, but I don't remember interpreting it as what I said.

There's always the opportunity to go back and check.

I was joking, I put a smiley face after I said that didn't I? Or if you wanna look at it from a western view. One of the labels associated with the word foe, is one who is opposes on principle.
Foe - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
You were opposing another based on principle so that person would be your "foe".

lol, fair enough

Western symbolism is centered on seperate parts of the whole. Where as Eastern symbolism is centered on the whole rather than the pieces that form it.

I use the terms "tendency to reductionism" and "tendency to holism," so we understand each other.

If you reject the notion of labels, understanding the many different facets that one label can contain or represent, then you will have a hard time understanding western symbolism in my opinion. Delve into the dissection my friend.

Yes, I tend to focus more on the action, and not on the "things," so eastern philosophy is easier for me to understand. And yes, it can be difficult, especially when I need to provide my own subtitles from the Tao Te Ching when reading Plato in order for it to make sense to me. (He's very wordy.)

Give me an example of truth that stands on its own, other than a mathematical example cuz that's cheating.

Somewhat random example:
An unmeasured photon or electron will pass through two slits and interfere with itself.
Double-slit experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[crossfire]

There's always the opportunity to go back and check.

**doh** I should have bolded the word "clinging" when I talked about clinging to duality, for more clarity.

I forget the western emphasis on focusing on things rather than on actions.

After all, if you cling to oneness, you are also clinging to duality, with its attraction/aversion polarization. (Clinging being related to attraction/aversion.)

 

[Adramelek]

I personally would not be satisfied with a minimum wage job. Since I furthered my education beyond just my GED by becoming proficient at Word, Excel, and PowerPoint, my skills are in demand. I do data entry for a living, but I have also done carpet installation for a living as well which pays pretty damn good if your willing to work your ash off. I'm talking about working from 7:00 am to 7:00 pm or later five to six days a week. I've been thinking about teaching piano part time since I attended a local university of music for 8 years back in the 1990's learning piano technique and melodic theory from a classical perspective. I also have other goals and ambitions in life - there is no rest for the Wicked. So long as a person has goals and ambitions in life and actually works towards them, the richer and more successful his/her life will be - "Without purpose the force of mind must fail." - The Diabolicon

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Gnothi seauton!

 

[1137]

You live in a fantasy land, Adramelek.

 

[nash8]

lol. Nibbana is said to be totally uncaused.
Essay on karma
Essay on chaos

Nibbana = Nirvana correct? If so, doesn't Nirvana require a dedication to spiritual practice in order to achieve? That doesn't lend itself to being uncaused?

I use the terms "tendency to reductionism" and "tendency to holism," so we understand each other.

That is a perfect analogy.
My buddy who adheres almost strictly to the Eastern thought, always gets mad at me for "disecting" as he puts it lol. He would be the closest thing to what I consider a "guru", and I always tell him he needs to disect more so I can understand what the hell he's talking about lol. He gets so mad.

I personally lean more towards Eastern thought myself, as I believe it is more "pure" so to say, but at the same time Western thought has it's place. After all most quantum physicists are beginning to say what Eastern mystics have said since the beginning. It just took them a few more thousand years to get there lol.

Yes, I tend to focus more on the action, and not on the "things," so eastern philosophy is easier for me to understand. And yes, it can be difficult, especially when I need to provide my own subtitles from the Tao Te Ching when reading Plato in order for it to make sense to me. (He's very wordy.)

But what you have to realize, is the thing is classified by it's action in western thought. It's just that a thing can have many actions so to speak. In some rights western thought is actually deeper than eastern though as it allows many actions to be attributed to one thing. Where eastern thought only allows one thing, which in itself is the action.

Somewhat random example:
An unmeasured photon or electron will pass through two slits and interfere with itself.
Double-slit experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lol, funny bring up the double-slit experiment, I was actually reading about that in this article you might find interesting. It poses some serious questions about why more things have not been done to test this type of theory.
The Ultimate Mystery: What Is Light?

However, I do not consider it a truth that stands on it's own, as their are so many questions that have not been asked, much less answered, in regard to this phenomenon. Many of which are asked in the article. One of the most prominent, is that relatively large molecules actually adhere to this pattern as well. So it actually, means that protons and neutrons can show the same pattern as unmeasured electrons and photons, and these particles actually have a measurable mass, I guess would be the right word. So is this phenomomenon dependent on mass, or type of particle or both? Then you have to ask yourself do we actually have the ability to accurately monitor something moving at the speed of light. Does the equipment being used affect the path of the photons? Photons have recently been shown to split into both two photons and into two seperate particles that essentially cancel each other out, but create two "new" photons in the proccess. What part does this play in the double slit phenomenon?

My idea of a truth that stands on it's own is one that I can't ask any questions about.

 

[nash8]

I personally would not be satisfied with a minimum wage job. Since I furthered my education beyond just my GED by becoming proficient at Word, Excel, and PowerPoint, my skills are in demand. I do data entry for a living, but I have also done carpet installation for a living as well which pays pretty damn good if your willing to work your ash off. I'm talking about working from 7:00 am to 7:00 pm or later five to six days a week. I've been thinking about teaching piano part time since I attended a local university of music for 8 years back in the 1990's learning piano technique and melodic theory from a classical perspective. I also have other goals and ambitions in life - there is no rest for the Wicked. So long as a person has goals and ambitions in life and actually works towards them, the richer and more successful his/her life will be - "Without purpose the force of mind must fail." - The Diabolicon

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Gnothi seauton!

And you shouldn't be satisfied with a minimum wage job, but when take away the avenues in which a person can pursue to better themselves, you take away much there ability to do so. Management in a service industry is the only widely available ability to improve your standing in the current economy in my opinion, and that is just not something that most people are geared for.

My current job is a perfect example. I've been there over a year and not one promotion form within, although plenty of people within the company applied for promotions, and were as qualified, if not more qualified for the position. I personally have an education degree, went through the proccess of learning how to do everything in the warehouse. On my own I might add, because my manager told me that he couldn't "afford" to have me learn how to do multiple jobs.

I did all this while still maintaining great productivity. Then I went to the trouble of writing out a 3 page essay on my end of year review on how putting me in a training position for new employees would benefit the company, and I how would still be able to provide excellent productivity in my previous job, and becoming more valuable to my company due to my versatility. What do they do after all my effort? They hire in someone from the outside with no experience in the field, who I end up training for two weeks, who only comes out on the production floor to tell me or someone else to train this new person, all while getting paid probably 50 grand a year. Doing things my way probably would have saved my company about 30 grand a year, and provided more in depth training for new employees, it seems even driving profit margin does not lend itself to promotion, unless that profit increase includes the oppression of people.

Improving your education according to the whims of the corporate machine is an endeavor with little to no gaurantee of return on investment. The only type of "self improvement" that they respect is an increase in ones ability to control and/or crush the will of the common people in order to drive their profit margin. This is not what I consider "furthering my personal education"

And I agree with you to a certain extent about the goals and ambitions, but one man's goals and ambitions might be totally different than anothers. Why are ones better or worse than the other. Buddhist monk's live in a "scientifically" documented chemical state of pleasure, euphoria, and positive emotion, yet their entire goal in life is to rid themselve of desire and/or ambition. I don't know about you, but living in a constant state of euphoria sounds like a pretty good "ambition" to me.

 

[crossfire]

Nibbana = Nirvana correct? If so, doesn't Nirvana require a dedication to spiritual practice in order to achieve? That doesn't lend itself to being uncaused?

Practice is a vehicle. Does a vehicle cause its destination?

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

I brought this thread here because I dont wan't the typical Christian answers my question.

I've always found this interesting that Jesus was labeled the morning star and the light, while lucifer literally means the light bringer, and has been defined as the morning star. Even when I was young and still caught up in Christian Dogma I found this interesting.

My theory is that Jesus was the total opposite of how he is portrayed in modern Christianity. As I read in the black flame thread in this DIR, many ancient terms used varous phrasings of Satan/evil/devil etc etc simply to denote beliefs that were in opposition to their own. Wouldn't this correspond perfectly to the view of Jesus beliefs in all aspects of the early Roman empire?

I don't contend that Jesus was a strict adherent of the westernized philosophy of the LHP as I don't think he focused soley on self gratification, but I do also he delved in practices that modern Christianity would consider "abominations" such as drinking alchoholic beverages, smoking marijuana, and using other mind altering substances. I think thats part of what made him so popular was after he gave a sermon there would be a huge party lol.

I also believe he practiced LHP techniques such as tantra (I mean come on, Mary Magdelene was probably a prostitute lol), Taoist Alchemy, and various other "black magic" practices (raising lazerus from the dead = necromancy in my opinion).

The interesting thing I believe about Jesus, was that he used all of these LHP practices to promote more RHP beliefs although in a unique way. He opposed authority to promote better treatment of the lower classes, taught equality of all peoples regardless of race or religion, promoted self realization and self empowerment to overthrow the oppressive authority, and not simply to show off ones power over others. It needed to be directed towards those that oppressed the common people.

Basically, I believe Jesus used the left hand to give power to himself, and then used the right hand to give that power to the people. Although I still believe he kept a lot of power for himself, as I don't think he was an adherent to the selfless sacrifice ideal that has been attributed to him by modern Christianity.

I believe Jesus was a true balance of the of the left and right hands, as the left hand takes and the right hand gives. In this light would have been persecuted by both the Jewish and Roman authorities as he would have been giving power to the people.

It is also my belief that Roman authorities adopted Christianity because of it's popularity, morphed it into a religion that suited their needs, and that is what we see now.

What do ya'll think?

I believe Jesus to be a magical wizard; whom escaped death through MAAAAAAGGICCCCC!!!!!!!!!!

 

[crossfire]

Photons have recently been shown to split into both two photons and into two seperate particles that essentially cancel each other out, but create two "new" photons in the proccess. What part does this play in the double slit phenomenon?

The rare instance of a photon splitting into an entangled pair seems to be an artifact of the equipment used for the experiment to produce single photons.
Spontaneous parametric down-conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My idea of a truth that stands on it's own is one that I can't ask any questions about.

Really? Alright then, how about untruths needing to be (emotionally or otherwise) propped up?

 

[nash8]

Practice is a vehicle. Does a vehicle cause its destination?

I would argue that practice is an action, and not a vehicle, and the action of practicing can cause me to reach my destination.

I believe Jesus to be a magical wizard; whom escaped death through MAAAAAAGGICCCCC!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, at least someone understands what I was trying to say.

The rare instance of a photon splitting into an entangled pair seems to be an artifact of the equipment used for the experiment to produce single photons.
Spontaneous parametric down-conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Really? Alright then, how about untruths needing to be (emotionally or otherwise) propped up?

Hmm interesting, I wonder if that same equipment effect the double-slit experiment, because I seem to recall that part of that experiment used the same single photon generator as well.

In my opinion, truths need to be propped up just as much as "untruths". The difference between the two lies in what they are propped up with.

 

[crossfire]

I would argue that practice is an action, and not a vehicle, and the action of practicing can cause me to reach my destination.

But it doesn't cause the destination.

Hmm interesting, I wonder if that same equipment effect the double-slit experiment, because I seem to recall that part of that experiment used the same single photon generator as well.

Well, it seems that it has even been replicated with something as large as Bucky balls. The single photon generator wouldn't be needed for that.

In my opinion, truths need to be propped up just as much as "untruths". The difference between the two lies in what they are propped up with.

Hmm, I'll have to think about that one.

 

[nash8]

But it doesn't cause the destination.

But in that sense what causes a destination?




[/quote] Well, it seems that it has even been replicated with something as large as Bucky balls. The single photon generator wouldn't be needed for that. [/quote]

Good point. Have you seen any experiments done where the results of the light pattern in the double slit experimente are observed after the fact, where the observation wouldn't actually occur until after the light had done it's thing so to speak?

Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. [/quote]

 

[Adramelek]

You live in a fantasy land, Adramelek.

That may be so Doors, but in my world "fantasies" do come true through force of mind and will= Black Magic. It may not have worked for you, but it sure as hell has worked for me. I find your lack of understanding and apparent inexperience with real world magical results disturbing. Magic is not just about study it is also about actually putting into practice all that you have learned resulting in real life manifestation. I would say that you are not only living in "fantasy land", but are also trapped in it, trapped in your own mind by your lack of confidence in your own abilities. Its not about talking the talk, its about walking the walk on the Path of the Left. Understanding, Hard work, patients, and endurance have always wielded great results for me in all of my worthwhile Works in life.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Gnothi seauton!

 

[1137]

Adramelek, what is disturbing is your idea that with Will all can be accomplished. How about you factor in the difficulty to get jobs, let alone jobs that pay enough to survive and afford school. Then factor in the outrageous costs of school which leave tremendous amount of people in debt if they even pull it off that way. Get through the hundreds of thousands of dollars for school and you enter a world where most graduates end up moving back home struggling to find jobs. We have people which PhDs lucky enough to teach community college. The mind is not all there is, even if your little religious leaders say otherwise. You may find my supposed lack of magic success disturbing (I'm actually rather accomplished), but I find it far more disturbing that you're so caught up in your little magic land that you don't even understand the real world.

You do data entry and installed carpet. Wow, cudos, that's superior magick right there.