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Featured Jesus as Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Oh that I need to see some evidence of.
     
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  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Actually there are Christians on both sides of this issue and they both use the Bible to support their claims.
     
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  3. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    "Through him ( Jesus) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."


    "But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; 8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. 9 Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD (Jesus) has done this? 10 In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."

    "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

    Whose hands?
    The One who made all things, Yeshua.


    Alpha (Α or α) and omega (Ω or ω) are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, and a title of Christ and God in the Book of Revelation.

    Christ and God are One and the same.
     
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  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You should talk to one of the modern Arian Christians that are here in the forum. Arianism is making quite a comeback. They could explain their take on John 1:1. Obviously, saying Jesus is Lord is not necessarily the same thing as saying he is God. AND they have verses of their own that you would have to grapple with. At any rate, I don't have a dog in the race, so I won't say more.
     
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  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That is the claim. It is not the evidence. Instead of wasting time you should have just admitted that you do not have any evidence.
     
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  6. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    What do you take that to mean? Was Jesus good? Yes, He was and is Perfect, Jesus said this to lead this person to faith and to see that Jesus is in fact God in the flesh. Ask yourself the question? Is Jesus good?
     
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  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That is a verse where Jesus makes it rather clear that he is not God. The verses in John imply that he is God. Have you ever stopped to think that the different Gospel writers may have had different beliefs about Jesus?
     
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  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The dates you have given for the writing of the Gospels are not the dates traditionally given, but correspond with modern criticism and scepticism. The earlier dates for the synoptic Gospels, which all occur before the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, are much more likely. Had this not been the case the destruction of the temple, and of Jerusalem, would have featured in Luke's chronological accounts (taken from Luke and Acts).

    The books of the Torah, Prophets and Writings were all in existence before the birth of Jesus, so the prophecies they contain are clearly in existence before the events of the New Testament.

    The idea that there were Jews willing to create a fictional character who would fit the prophecies borders on madness. Who would do such a thing and for what benefit? There were false Messiah's, one of whom gets a mention in the book of Acts, but there is nothing to indicate that the many witnesses to Jesus' life made up their stories. If you think it's an easy thing to do then try taking the Tanakh and making up the story of the Messiah as expected by Jews. Your story will contain nothing but holes, l'm sure.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Jesus Christ is the mediator, fully God and fully man. But it's because he was fully God that he his worthy of worship and service.
    IMO.
     
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  10. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Jesus wasn’t saying He was not God, just the opposite. How about you? Answer the question yourself, Is Jesus good?
     
  11. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    If you don't take Bible verses as evidence, what are you doing on this thread? It's a debate about what the Bible says about who Jesus is.
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The modern Torah Jewish notion of the Messiah is a confused amalgamation of the Messianic prophecies. There are very few 'suffering servant' references applied to the Messiah, but there are many that refer to the second coming. Torah Jews are, therefore, very selective in deciding which prophecies apply and which do not.

    The problem with the Jewish selections is that it makes the Messiah wholly man, and not God. Yet scripture declares plainly that only God can save from sin and death.

    You say that John's Jesus is like Paul's and unlike the synoptic Jesus. What do you think makes these perspectives irreconcilable? The orthodox Christian position had always been that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    There are No three categories, that is just a tradition that developed after the first century ended.
    God sent His pre-human heavenly Son to Earth. Heavenly Jesus was born as a perfect sinless man.
    God's Son is the Lord of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 who has the voice of 'the' archangel.
    None of us could be a ransom for the wrong Adam committed, so we needed a ' perfect Adam ' to balance the Scales of Justice for us.
    A perfect Adam that would correspond to what Adam was 'before' Adam sinned ( aka broke God's Law )
    Who God sent from Heaven is who we call Lord Jesus and Lord Jesus has the voice of 'the' archangel.
    We are dealing with two persons. Resurrected Jesus appeared before only one person at Hebrews 9:24 his God.
    Resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus appeared before the person of God. Jesus did Not appear to himself.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, Jesus is good in a 'relative position' to his God's 'absolute position' - see what Jesus says at Revelation 4:11.
    The God of the Bible is Not limited and according to Psalms 90:2 can Not die ( be put to death ).
    Jesus, on the other hand, could be put to death. Dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself - Acts of the Apostles 3:15
    Good Jesus made it clear as to whom we should worship at John 4:23-24 but to worship his God.
    Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at John 4:23-24 Jesus instructs as to who one should worship. Jesus directed worship to his God and Father.
    The resurrected Jesus did Not ascend to himself but to appear before God in heaven on our behalf - Hebrews 9:24.
     
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  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel.

    But there's no description of a Jewish messiah that's applicable to Jesus. The idea that he was entitled to the honorific "messiah-Christ-anointed" ─ is purely Christian. There's no basis for the claim ─ not that you've made it ─ that the Jews recognized Jesus as the messiah but willfully rejected him.
    In Jewish thought there's only one God, and although [he] specially favors some of [his] Chosen People, such as Moses, Elisha or David, [his] representatives whether angelic or human are [his] subordinates. The ruach, the breath of God, is not a separate entity as the Holy Ghost is, but a manifestation of God [him]self.
    But there's no reason [he] can't do it by [his] representatives ─ certainly none that I know of. Jesus says more than once that God has given him the power to forgive sins, for example.
    Yes, both express views of Jesus colored with gnosticism, and regard Jesus as the gnostic demiurge.
    For the reasons I stated ─ all versions of Jesus deny they're God, none claims to be God, all pray to God which is pretty silly if they're addressing themselves, and nothing even vaguely resembling the Trinity doctrine was known to the authors of the NT, since it didn't exist until centuries after their time.
     
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  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The ^ above ^ about Arianism making a comeback is news to me.
    I find Arius taught God is Un-begotten and without a beginning. The Son, because he is begotten can not be God in the sense that the Father is. The Son did Not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of the Father.

    Yes, the Bible does teach the Son is begotten.
    Yes, the Bible does teach God is Un-begotten being from everlasting ( No beginning ) -Psalms 90:2
    Yes, the Son was created and like us exist (Not by our own will) but by God 's (The Creator) will - Revelation 4:11
     
  18. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    The Son glorifies and exalts the Father and the Father glorifies and exalts the Son.
     
  19. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Critical scholarship, it would not have been compatible at all with Scripture.
     
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  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find John 4:23-24 to be compatible with all Scripture. Jesus instructed as to who to worship.
    Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12
     
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