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Featured Jesus as Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If God had never intended for there to be more than one Messenger God would not have sent Moses. Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and the other Messengers.

    I do not believe that the Bible is the only scripture that was ever revealed by God. What people believe is all dependent upon what scripture they go by, which is the scripture they base their beliefs upon.
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    IMO.

    The prophets of the Hebrew Bible, including Moses, all pointed to the coming of one Messiah, the 'seed' of Abraham.

    It should be noticed, that God chose Abraham, lsaac and Jacob, and from the Israelite 'house' come all the literary prophets, the men chosen to deliver the books of prophecy.

    The reason that l, and most Jews and Christians, reject Muhammad, Bab and Baha'ullah is because these men fail to fit into scripture. In every case where the prophecies from the Bible are applied to these individuals, who were not themselves lsraelites, the passages are intended for (the first or second coming of) the one Messiah, such as Deuteronomy 18:15.

    As l see it, Muslim, Bahai and Christian holy texts find their legitimacy in the Hebrew Bible. Therefore, the question that matters most with regard to legitimate fulfilment of scripture must be a legitimate understanding of the Hebrew scriptures, and particularly with regard to the promises made regarding the coming Messiah.

    The reason l reject all 'religion' as offering salvation is that l believe all religion to be based on law, not the grace of God in Christ. The law given to Moses was the one true religion of God, but this has been fulfilled in Christ.

    IMO.
     
    #522 Redemptionsong, Sep 29, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What do you make of Psalm 110:1?
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe that the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, including Moses, all pointed to the coming of two Messiahs, Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

    I believe that the reason that most Jews and Christians, reject Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah is because they await the Messiah that they believe will be coming, a Messiah that fulfills what they want and expect to see in a Messiah. For Christians it is the same man Jesus, for Jews it is a messiah that will redeem the Jews and restore them to their former position as the chosen ones.

    I believe that Baha'u'llah was prophesied in scripture. In every case where the prophecies from the Bible are applied to one of two individuals. The passages are intended for the first and second coming of a Messiah, Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

    26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

    Regarding the coming of the Messiah and other Messengers of God, I do not believe the Jews understood the Hebrew scriptures because they failed to recognize Jesus, and then they failed to recognize Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who were all prophesied in their scriptures.

    Regarding the return of Christ who was to be the Messiah of the latter days, I do not believe the Christians understood the Hebrew scriptures or New Testament scriptures, as they have failed to recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    Yesterday, when asked by a Christian how Baha'u'llah offered salvation I posted the following article. The concept of salvation in the Baha'i Faith is similar to Christianity in some ways but different in other ways.

    Salvation
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    In Mark 13:24-27 we read about the tribulation and then, afterwards, of 'the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory'. This is not the same as Daniel 7:13,14, because, if you read Daniel's wording carefully, the 'Son of man came with the clouds of heaven' ....and 'there was given him dominion, and glory'. In other words, 'the one like the Son of man' did not have glory at his coming to 'the Ancient of days'. It was God the Father that gave glory and honour to the Son of man. Having received this glory he was able to come a second time to earth 'with great power and glory' [Mark 13:26].

    Daniel tells us about the ascension of Jesus Christ, and Mark tells us about his second coming.

    To be sure that it's the same person, one only has to read the parable in Mark 13:32-37. In the story, the time of the master's return to the house is known only to God in heaven. Yet, it's the same master of the house who leaves his servants in charge and tells them to remain watchful for his return.

    How many 'only begotten' Sons does the Father have? How many wedding feasts will take place? How many Lambs are due to marry?
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    As I have already said, scriptures can be interpreted in various ways to mean various things and it makes for interesting discussions. Just today I realized a different interpretation of Daniel 12:4 was brought to my attention by reading an article, and I plan to start a thread on that topic next weekend.

    I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was the Son of man, nor did He ever claim to be. I believe He was the return of the Son of Man, one like the Son of Man. That is why Jesus said "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and why Jesus did not say you will see "me" in the clouds with power and great glory.

    Regarding the Son of man in the clouds I suggest you read this thread I posted some time ago:

    Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

    If Jesus was the Son of man the following verses cannot be about the Jesus because they say "one like the Son of man" I believe that these verses are about Baha'u'llah who was one like the Son of man.

    Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Here is my interpretation of those verses: Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. Baha’u’llah, one like the son of man, descended from the clouds of heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom is in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom will be on earth, after it is built by humans.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If you believe that Baha'ullah's kingdom is to be built on earth, why is that kingdom not present now? An earthly kingdom only exists when the king/monarch is present. If Baha'ullah assumed his reign in 1844, why do we not see Baha'ullah reigning today?

    The kingdom of God is not of this world because it exists in the hearts of men and cannot be seen. But when Jesus Christ is recognised as Lord in glory at his coming, all men will bow the knee.

    The problem with your reading of Daniel 7:13,14 is that the 'coming to the Ancient of days' is a coming to God in heaven, not earth. Mark 13, on the other hand, says it's the 'Son of man' coming, not 'one like the Son of man'. Whether the Son of man actually reaches the earth is another matter, as his coming 'in the clouds' may predict the rapture of saints followed by a destruction of wickedness upon earth.
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I don't accept that one can apply any fanciful interpretation to scripture and remain persuasive. God, as the inspiration behind the words, knows his intended meaning, and often repeats the same truth in other passages of scripture, through different prophets, to reinforce a truth.

    Tell me which passages of Hebrew scripture you think point us towards Muhammad?
     
  9. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    So if David Koresh praised someone for thinking he was the messiah, that makes him one?
     
  10. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Neither do you. God said to fear Him who can kill souls, but if He can, there’s nothing stopping Him from killing you in heaven. Satan got thrown out, so clearly one can’t guarantee eternal presence in heaven.
     
  11. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Not sure what you’re trying to say here but David Koresh was just a man, died and was buried.
    Jesus Christ is the messiah, died on the cross according to the scriptures, was buried, rose from the dead the 3rd day according to the scriptures, was seen by Peter, the apostles, over 500 people and was seen going up to heaven before Pentecost. Big difference between the 2 people or anyone else for that matter.
     
  12. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    I do have the guarantee because the Holy Spirit is living inside of me, anyone that repents and believes the gospel, is born again, has this witness and guarantee.
     
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  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    For what it's worth, I tend to agree.

    For example, why would God only provide directions starting only a few thousand years ago in one little area of the world? That makes no sense to me.

    Humans as humans go back to roughly 6 million years bp, but the Hebrew scriptures didn't get written until around 3 thousand years bp. That's like a drop in the bucket. So, weren't people borne before then important to God? And what about the myriads of people who lived outside the Mediterranean region-- didn't they count?

    IMO, there has to be something else, but I'll stop at this point.
     
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  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I never claimed that Baha'u'llah was a king who would have a kingdom on earth. It is humans who will build the kingdom of God on earth, by following the writings of Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah is reigning today, but not the way an earthly king would reign. Whatever gave the Jews and Christians the idea that the Messiah would rule on earth as a king?

    Jesus was the Son of God so He came to earth in the station of the Son, but now Jesus is ruling in heaven.

    Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    “The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.”
    Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

    Baha’u’llah, who came in the station of the Father, is ruling over earth from heaven.

    “THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90
    This is according to your interpretation of the scriptures to which you are entitled. I already explained what I interpret Daniel 7:13-14 to mean so there is no need for me to repeat that.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That's right, God knows the meaning, so why do so many people insist that they know the meaning yet the meanings that they assign to the same verses are not the same?
    You are also right that those meanings are reinforced through different prophets.

    I am not that familiar with all the verses that refer to Muhammad, but I know a few of them because they are delineated in the Baha'i Writings.

    Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah were all prophesied in the Bible... For example:

    “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” (Rev. 11:14) The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” (Ez. 30:1-3)

    Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.
    Some Answered Questions, p. 56

    “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth.” (Rev. 11:3). These two witnesses are Muhammad the Messenger of God, and ‘Alí, son of AbúTálib............

    Then it is said: “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” (Rev. 11:4). These two souls are likened to olive trees because at that time all lamps were lighted by olive oil. The meaning is two persons from whom that spirit of the wisdom of God, which is the cause of the illumination of the world, appears. These lights of God were to radiate and shine; therefore, they are likened to two candlesticks: the candlestick is the abode of the light, and from it the light shines forth. In the same way the light of guidance would shine and radiate from these illumined souls.
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 48-49

    Read more: 11: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, read Job, and I also read Ezekiel 28:13-16 that Satan turned himself in a Satan, a Devil - James 1:13-15.
    Satan used his appointed position to have undo importance to the point that Satan's ambition, his rebellion against his God to the point that Satan wants us to also join him and disobey God.

    At Job 2:4-5 we find that Satan Not only challenged Job but by way of extension all of us.
    If God would have forbidden Satan's challenge it could be said Satan was right.
    Satan challenged that if our 'flesh...' (our physical health) was adversely affected we would Not serve God.
    Under adverse conditions but Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, angelic creation was already in existence before human creation came into existence.
    Please notice Job 38:4-7 because the 'sons of God' (angels) shouted for joy at when Earth was created.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    A quote that your requested is found at Genesis 2:4
    KJV ........ " in the DAY that the LORD God made the Earth and the Heavens "
    ALL of the 6 creative days are summed up by the single word DAY.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, agree, in Scripture eternal hellfire is: primitive daftness. It is a religious-myth teaching just taught as Scripture.
    'Biblical hell' is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the ' sleeping ' dead.
    I find false clergy who use 'fire' as a scare tactic to try to control the flock of God.
    Please notice that Jesus and the OT both teach 'SLEEP' (Not pain) in death:
    As found at John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
    I find it is wickedness that sends a person (Not to flames) but to their: destruction.
    This is why I find Scripture teaches being 'destroyed forever' at Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; 2 Peter 3:9.
    So, it is Not the breaking of rules and laws, but the refusing to give up such lawless ways.
    I find if there were No rules or laws there would be No civilized civilization.
     
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What I'm looking for is some clarity and consistency!

    If Jesus is Christ in heaven, and Baha'ullah is also Christ in heaven, do we have two Christs reigning in heaven?

    What, therefore, do you make of Philippians 2:8-10?
    'And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father,'

    So, if Jesus Christ is Lord, how many 'Lords' are there? It says in Ephesians 4:5: 'One Lord, one faith, one baptism,' Is Baha'ullah, therefore, not a Lord in heaven?
     
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