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Featured Jesus as Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I would offer that all that you offer about Jesus can be likewise attributed to other Messengers from God.

    What makes them different is the Holy Spirit and it is God that gives that Spirit to the Mesengers.

    One of the greatest veils we can raise is that of the veil of names, where we see God in only one name and refuse to look for the same light in all the Names of God.

    Now as to the birth of Jesus, it is worth knowing that many Messengers are known for miraculously entering this world, all of them have a unique story.

    Miraculous births - Wikipedia

    Regards Tony
     
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  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    And who amongst these claimants was raised from the dead?
     
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  3. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    All of them were, exactly as Jesus was and said he would be. We also die in this world and are raised in Spirit, but only in a state that we have attained in Faith. Either we were born again and practiced what was preached, or we were not, but we all die to this world and face that Judgement.

    Regards Tony
     
  4. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Another good meditation is about Elijah as remember Jesus says Elijah always comes first and for the Message Jesus had given from God, Jesus told the followers that John the Baptist was Elijah. So we can rightly see there was no miraculous return of Elijah, only the Spiritual connotation.

    So how did Elijah depart from this world.

    "Elijah, in company with Elisha, approaches the Jordan. He rolls up his mantle and strikes the water.[44] The water immediately divides and Elijah and Elisha cross on dry land. Suddenly, a chariot of fire and horses of fire appear[39] and Elijah is lifted up in a whirlwind. As Elijah is lifted up, his mantle falls to the ground and Elisha picks it up."

    Now if Elijah always comes first, and John the Baptist was Elijah, you would agree I am sure, that it is easy to see that the stories are giving us spiritual Metephor that we need to understand in our spiritual capacity. I am also sure that you would consider that we are no longer children wanting everything to be a miraculous magical display, that we need to be responsible for investigating and determining our faith.

    Regards Tony
     
  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Umm, yes it does when it calls Him an apostle…. Hebrews 3:1


    “An apostle was an official representative charged with a commission.”

    What Does the Bible Teach Us About Being an Apostle?

    He was “sent forth” by “the Only True God.”— John 17:3

    Adam was created without sin, being called “the son of God” at Luke 3:38

    He lost perfection, and became sinful, when he disobeyed Jehovah God.

    Didn’t you ever wonder why the generations immediately after him, I.e., Seth, Enoch, etc through Noah, had such long lifespans? (Gradually, longevity diminished the further away from Adam mankind got.)

    When sin is finally removed, “the Tent of God [will be] with mankind,….and death will be no more.”
    Revelation 21:3-4

    Everlasting life, “the gift God gives (Romans 6:23)” = perfection.
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe all of that was true during the Dispensation of Jesus, but I believe that Dispensation was abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

    I don't know what you mean by adding canon to the Bible. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is a new revelation from God, it is not a an addition to the Bible, not anymore than the Qur'an is an addition to the Bible.

    Galatians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


    The reason Paul said that was because there is only one gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that gospel was never to be added to nor any other gospel preached.
    There are have been many different calculations, all using the same Bible. What does that tell you?

    If you have a different calculation I would like yo hear it and there are others here such as @CG Didymus who would also like to hear it.

    It is not only Sears' calculations because other Bible scholars came up with the same year. But that is neither here nor there for those who are still waiting for the same man Jesus to return because Jesus never promised to return to earth. He said His work was finished here and He was no more on the world. (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You asked about salvation, not about judgment.

    Redemptionsong said: Tony, what does Baha'ullah teach as the way of salvation?

    No, Baha'is do not believe that we are judged by service to others although that is an important part of being a Baha'i. Recognizing and believing in Baha'u'llah is what I believe we will be judged upon, although it is also our duty to follow the ordinances that Baha'u'llah set forth.

    “The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

    The Twin Duties

    It is interesting to note that Jesus said that the way to gain eternal life is believing in Him, so that is really no different from what Baha'u'llah wrote about believing in Him. For a Baha'i it goes without saying that we also have to believe in Jesus, that is a requirement.

    John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

    1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

    However, Jesus also said that righteous works are necessary to gain eternal life. Are you going to believe Paul or Jesus?

    Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
     
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  8. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Our human mother birthed all human babies

    Status born returned is by the living.

    Ignored advice.

    You make a human claim so you have to rationalise the claim.

    Has evidence life lost before as machine parts human artefacts inside instant snap frozen fusion proven we all died by satanism? Nuclear science.

    Satanism your brother by science sent you human spirit human to hell. Combusted us all. Real.
    We all died.

    The heavens owns life recorded voice image memories that told us human life returned by saviour ice age from being dead.

    Just a human science archaeology teaching. Statement voice image heavenly records told us. Pyramid memories crystalline Atlantis.

    A higher once lived earth life.

    Now if you invented the science by being human then you caused a code by encoding transmitting Phi fall out yourselves. For men to inherit.

    As men you could maths prophecize when saviour asteroid wandering star put back earths heavens as lost gases then a baby male DNA would be healed by pressure causes ....water mass instead of evaporating kept to ground.....

    Life healed. Life consciousness evolved. Man of science does it again. As healed evolved human psyche. Using the same reasons.

    Human behaviour destroyer sciences of men. A men tality.

    Known. But was taught as human female womb healed in a God act cellular where all babies are born. God put back by heavens change healthy ovary baby life

    Medical genesis advice.

    Now messengers I've seen in image as human brothers or sisters. Some messages are large bodies some small.

    Large human messengers look like angels as their bodies non pressured enlarge. Natural heavens effect. Image and recordings human pre lived past life memories.

    Father said he and mother owned an eternal spirit that left came into atmosphere became the instant human.

    Proved by the fact bio human is mainly a water body ourselves highest ground state. Heavens at ground ground zero spatial plane filled in.

    The gap between earth as God and space separated from the eternal origin. We came out of that body ourselves to be with God.

    Whilst living human DNA evolved after ice age atmospheric cooling. How a spiritual man in ice age life re developed a spiritual ego.

    Chose science again said by men using body wisdom I will survive the practice as he had evolved bodily yet I knew life would be harmed.

    After all it was Satanism known. The advice of gods past. As science. Pyramid.

    Same reading and theme intended in modern healed life....any nuclear scientist owned belief expressed.

    However when irradiated which was never known you sure change your mind about what is acceptable as body losses. Compared to practicing nuclear science.

    Human behaviour at its worst.

    Why you lied about your man choice and blamed father. My brother chose science.

    My brother also has a problem with his spiritual ego that he taught don't self idolise.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    We have testimony that only Jesus was raised from the dead and transformed into an immortal and incorruptible body. All others await resurrection in faith. Jesus, as the first-fruits of the harvest, is the evidence that others hold to be true.

    In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul makes a statement, which if true, tells us that Baha'ullah must be a false christ:
    'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.'


    The person of Christ is, in this passage, the 'anointed one' and not the gift of Holy Spirit. It says, '
    every man in his own order', so it must be referring to the man Jesus Christ as the 'firstfruits'.

    If Baha'ullah is the return of the Christ Spirit we should all have experienced resurrection, as the fruits of the harvest promised by God.
     
    #489 Redemptionsong, Sep 25, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy to accept that Christ was 'sent forth' from God the Father. It signifies that Spirit sends forth Spirit (the Word).

    The issue is, once again, a matter of options. Either Jesus Christ was:
    1. Only God
    2. Only Man
    3. Both God and Man

    By calling Jesus Christ a 'representative' you are claiming no. 2 is true.

    Is that your position?
     
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The whole point is that you ARE preaching a different gospel.

    The orthodox belief of Christians is that Jesus Christ came to abolish sin and death, and only through faith in him is there access to the kingdom of God. By placing your faith in Baha'ullah, as the return of Christ, you are demonstrating belief in another way, not the way of Jesus Christ.

    If you take John's word to mean that Jesus is in heaven and does not return, does this mean there are two Christs? If so, you deny biblical teaching.

    And does that mean that the promise of baptism in the Holy Spirit can no longer be fulfilled because Christ has returned? How can the Holy Spirit continue to be sent from the Father, through the Son, if the Son has returned to earth? Jesus Christ baptises from heaven, not earth.
     
  12. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Then consider this passage, as I see that you are offering as a Christian, that a Christain will be the first to be vindicated in Faith, yet we do have guidance in the scriptures in precisely this thought, in Mathew 20 we read this;

    "14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
    15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
    16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

    It may be others will enter the kingdom promised by Jesus the Christ, before those that offer they are the followers of Christ.

    May God bless you with all that is.

    Regards Tony
     
    #492 TransmutingSoul, Sep 25, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Verses in the Bible can be interpreted and understood to mean many different things, depending upon who is interpreting them and what their current knowledge base is. Since I have been posting to various Christians for about nine years I have interpreted Cor 15 many times and I have many versions that explain what I believe it means inn various ways. Below is one of my interpretations.

    In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.

    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death, not physical death. The physical body was never designed to live forever, but the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus will have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but they will not have eternal life because in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.

    Eternal life refers to a quality of life, gaining the rewards of the heaven, which are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of physical life, since the physical body cannot live forever. Eternal life refers to continuance or duration of the life of the soul, since souls live forever.

    Thus I believe that all the following Bible verses refer to the eternal life if the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body:

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'is have a very different understanding from Christians of what the resurrection is:

    “According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

    Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”

    Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222

    The full explanation is on this link The Great Resurrection
     
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  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The point I was trying to make was that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is not a gospel because there is only one gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is why Paul said what he said in Galatians 1:8-9.
    By placing our faith in Baha'ullah, as the return of Christ, Bahais are not demonstrating belief in another way, since we believe that Jesus came to abolish sin and death, but our understanding of how that was accomplished is different from the orthodox belief of Christians. What Baha’is believe regarding how Adam brought sin into the world and how Christ saved us from that sin is explained below:

    Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

    Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

    The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

    All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

    Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

    Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

    Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-120

    Read more: 29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

    Abolishing sin and death was part of the mission of Jesus, it was not the mission of Baha'u'llah. As the return of Christ, Baha'u'llah came to renew the Holy Spirit on earth and to bring the blueprint instructions that humanity will need to build the Kingdom of God on earth.
    There is only one man Jesus but the Christ Spirit returns whenever God sends a new Messenger.

    If you take John's word then the same Jesus is not going to return to earth (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30) and that means that the references in the Bible to the return of Christ must be about another person.
    I do not know what verses lead you to believe that Jesus Christ baptizes from heaven so I cannot offer any opinion on this.

    My belief is that the Holy Spirit is sent to earth in every new age whenever God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation of God). It is the Messenger of God who manifests God on earth and brings the Holy Spirit from the Father.

    Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit, which is the Bounty of God that comforts people, and we believe that Baha'u'llah was another Comforter as well as the Spirit of truth that Jesus promised to send from the Father in heaven. What Jesus said in John 14 flows from one verse to the next verse.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; -- Jesus says that the Father (God) will give us another Comforter. Jesus was the first Comforter and Baha’u’llah was the second Comforter.

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you. – Jesus says that the world cannot see or receive the Spirit of truth (Baha’u’llah) because we do not know him yet, since he has not come yet; but the disciples know the Spirit of truth because it is the same Holy Spirit that resides in them as a result of Jesus. Iows, the Holy Spirit Baha’u’llah will bring is the same Holy Spirit that Jesus brought, since it is the Bounty of God which never changes.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. – Jesus said He would come but if you tie that together to the two verses above, we can see Jesus did not mean He would come in the same body, but rather the same Spirit would come (another Comforter). Moreover, he could not have addressing only the disciples, because neither Jesus nor Baha’u’llah came during their lifetimes.

    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.– Finally, Jesus made it perfectly clear that the world would not see Him again after He left; but we will see Him because His spirit lives on forever. As a result of believing in Jesus we will gain eternal life.
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I think then we can agree with Deuteronomy 6:4; Deuteronomy 5:7; Isaiah 42:8; Zechariah 14:9; 2 Samuel 7:22.
    The nation of ancient Israel did Not believe in a trinity or a triune god as the Babylonians and Egyptians did.
    Jesus was a Jew trained by Jewish parents in the Old Hebrew Scriptures.
    Jesus did Not teach a New Theology but Jesus accepted as his own beliefs what is in the OT text.
    Thus, Jesus (and I think Moses was a Mediator) is Mediator in the sense that Moses was a go between.
     
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  17. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, there is another option. Jesus was
    4. God’s first-born spirit son, whose life force was transferred to the womb of Mary, and born as a perfect male. (What Adam was, when first created.)
    Jesus had memories of his previous existence, when he prayed to God in John 17 5…”And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
    And vs.24….”Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.”
     
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  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Whether first or last, the labourers all worked for the same lord of the vineyard. The point being made is that they received the same reward, even if they worked a shorter time.

    It should be clearly stated that Christians are not boasting of their own righteousness. When Jesus Christ is followed, it means that self-righteousness is replaced by the righteousness of Christ, a gift of God. Only through repentance, the giving up of self-righteousness, is it possible to receive the blessings and grace that Christ wishes to bestow.
     
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  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, the God of heaven. When Jesus Christ baptises, he does so from heaven. So why do you think that Baha'ullah brings the Holy Spirit when he appears on earth?
     
    #499 Redemptionsong, Sep 26, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Then you don't believe the scriptures that state: 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;' [1 Timothy 2:5]
     
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