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Featured Jesus as Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    It is worth considering that Jesus was not the only Lamb, in fact the Bab mirrored the sacrafice that Jesus also gave.

    I see every Messenger is the Lamb given by God.

    The issue here is, do we choose to worship a name, or do we worship what was the Spirit of Christ, it is that Spirit that is of God. It was Peter that offered Jesus was the Christ and it was that Name that Jesus was to build the Church upon. That name means Annointed One, and Jesus was Annointed with the Holy Spirit that is from God, and in that way Jesus was the Self of God amongst us.

    But Jesus said it is finished and I will return with a New Name, and there will be a New Jerusalem, who no one would recognise unless they accepted it was Christ come again.

    Regards Tony
     
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  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I have facts, lots of facts that surround the Person and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah..
    God is not verifiable because God cannot be observed but I do have evidence that God exists.
    The evidence that shows that God exists is the Messenger of God who was observable and knowable as a fact.
    God is not demonstrable or verifiable but we can have knowledge of God through what the Messenger of God reveals about God.
    That's true, but there is evidence. Just because the evidence does not prove anything to you that does not make it non-evidence. Evidence is evidence and it will not be evidence regardless of whether people believe it proves God exists.

    Case in point: All the evidence that a man committed a murder will be presented to the jury but everyone on the jury will not necessarily look at that evidence and conclude that the man is guilty. Some jurors might believe the evidence is inadequate to pronounce a guilty verdict. But regardless of what the jury concludes the evidence is still the evidence.

    The important point is that the man either committed the murder of he did not, regardless of what the jury concludes.

    Likewise, all the evidence that shows that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God can be presented, but not everyone will look at that evidence and conclude that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. But regardless of what people conclude the evidence is still the evidence.

    The important point is that Baha'u'llah was either a Messenger of God or not, regardless of what people conclude after looking at the evidence.
    But there is evidence that God exists.
    I agree. There needs to be evidence, not just faith. Anything can be believed on faith.
    I said: "Some things that are believed on faith can be true." I was not suggesting that you believe anything on faith. I was just making a logical statement. Do you understand that evidence is not what makes anything true? Something is either true or false. Evidence is just what people want in order to know if something is true or false.

    If a man committed a murder and there was no evidence he still committed the murder. If God did not provide any evidence of His existence God would still exist if God exists. Of course God did provide evidence because otherwise God would not have expected anyone to believe that He exists, since that would be unjust to expect people to believe in God with no evidence.
    Again, I was not suggesting that you believe anything on faith. I was just making a logical statement.
    There is a way to distinguish true from false, by using your rational mind, your innate intelligence.
    No, beliefs cannot be tested like scientific facts. In order to know if they are true or not you have to independently investigate the religion and verify for yourself if it is true or false. There is no other way. God created everyone with the capacity to recognize the signs of God and believe He exists

    “I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

    “He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings, pp. 105-106
    No, I require evidence but I also require faith that God exists and sends Messengers since that cannot be proven.
    I am not 'missing' anything because I never said that faith is a pathway to truth, so that is a straw man.

    Faith is required for anything that cannot absolutely be proven. This not only applies to religious beliefs.
    But we also want evidence because faith alone is not enough to base anything upon.
     
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  3. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    You have claims.

    That's the belief. Not the evidence. It is in fact the belief that is in need of evidence.

    Those are beliefs.

    Again, these are the claims; the religious beliefs. Those are the things in need of evidence. They are not the evidence.


    Are you going to share that evidence any time soon?
    So far, all you have given here are mere claims and beliefs.


    Evidence is what allows you to distinguish true beliefs from false beliefs.


    But you would never know about it. And thus wouldn't have rational reasons to believe it.

    Will this evidence be forthcoming any time soon?

    Having rational mind certainly is a prerequisite. However, that by itself is not enough.
    You still need independently verifiable evidence. If you don't, all you have are mere beliefs.

    That completely depends on the nature of the claim being believed.
    Unfalsifiable, unverifiable claims (like religious claims) indeed can't be tested / verified / supported in reality.
    This is why it's not rational to accept them as correct.


    Which is kind of hard to do when there is no evidence and the very nature of the claims makes them unverifiable.

    The "other way", is to reject claims that can't be verified, are unfalsifiable and thus are indistinguishable from pure fantasy.


    This is just preaching. This is just you stating your religious beliefs again.

    Either you have evidence or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

    You don't need to say it. It's implied.
    You just said it again: you have faith that god exists and sends messengers and you can't support those beliefs. You just believe them. On faith. So clearly, you think this faith thing is good enough for you to accept those claims.

    But it isn't, off course. Because faith is not a pathway to truth.

    Give me break. "absolutely proven". Come on now................................
    "proof" is for mathematics. I'm just talking about evidential support.
    Faith is what you need when you got nothing.

    False.
    It can't be "absolutely proven" that I'll die from jumping down the Eiffel Tower, unless I actually take the jump.
    But I don't need "faith" to believe that I won't live to tell the story if I'ld take that jump.

    Then why do you believe a god exists and sends messengers?
     
  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Doesn’t seem necessary for an omnipresent being.
     
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  5. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Jesus also believed that they didn’t understand him. Do you want a tutor who failed the class?
     
  6. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Is God forced to accept reality?
     
  7. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Then how did the magi know about Jesus?
     
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  8. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    This is often contradicted in the Bible, like when God can walk around with Adam and Eve.
     
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  9. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Asking for dew on a blanket worked for Gideon IIRC.
     
  10. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Then Jesus fails because he sins all throughout the story, both sins per Judaism of the first century and sins now, such as racism and sexism.
     
  11. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Lots of sinful people wake up from death, especially in the modern world.
     
  12. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    And then Abe’s people were constantly enslaved and tortured and killed and run out of the country. Abe didn’t read the fine print.
     
  13. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. God told me that the Bible isn’t true.
     
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  14. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    But if man lies, then scriptures written by men can’t be trusted.
     
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  15. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    You don’t believe in the second coming?
     
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  16. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    If you are unhappy with the finite life God gave you, what makes you think that you will enjoy an eternity?
     
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  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hi Tony, l think it's worth looking carefully at the use of the word 'rock' (Gk 'petra') in the scriptures. The word is used of God and of Christ, but never of a man. The word used of Peter means 'a stone'. It's important to understand the Christ is the true foundation of the Church.

    I believe that the Bible contains a complete message or revelation. In Genesis 1:1 we read about the creation of the (first) heaven and earth. In Revelation 21 we are told of a 'new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;'. Between the covers of the Christian Bible are both the prophecies of Christ, and their fulfilment. There is no space given for false claimants to the throne reserved for Jesus Christ.

    What l see Baha'ullah doing is making a claim to be the return of Christ to judge. But, as Jesus made plain, the return of the Lord to judge must be a return from heaven. This is not a claim Muhammad, Bab or Baha'ullah can make, given they each have a birthplace on earth.

    The only prophecy to a birthplace on earth is reserved for Bethlehem, a small town in Judea, the birthplace of king David. The birth of Jesus, the Messiah of God, takes place here, and it is not the birthplace of Muhammad, Bab or Baha'ullah.
     
    #417 Redemptionsong, Sep 21, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    That's overlooking the problem of sin, which requires a just punishment.
    The disciples understood enough to receive the promise - the Holy Spirit.
    God is reality. God is truth.
    We don't know enough to be sure of the identity or learning of the magi. They clearly associated astronomical signs with Jewish predictions. It is possible that they drew learning from Jews who remained in Babylon after the exile. Either way, such learning is not the same as prophecy.
    God walked with Adam before the fall, and afterwards asked, 'Where art thou?'. Clearly, the relationship had changed as the result of sin.
    But it wouldn't be convincing proof to the sceptics on RF!
    IMO, no such racism or sexism exists. More importantly, his Father in heaven saw no such sin, and God reads the heart.
    In the modern world people wake up to continue a mortal existence, not eternal life with Christ!
    Abe's people are a people of faith, and God's promises apply on earth as they do in heaven.
    Who is your god that he should contradict the Creator?
    But the scriptures are not, lMO, the word of man but the word of God.
    The second coming is different from the first coming, so it's not a repeat. The first coming was by birth on earth; the second is from heaven to judge.
    I accept that in this life there is an opportunity to find salvation. There is the possibility of peace now, and for eternity. IMO.
     
    #418 Redemptionsong, Sep 21, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah all had a birthplace on earth yet all of their souls were pre-existent in the spiritual world (heaven).

    (96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

    The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

    (Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)


    Therefore, there is no difference between how Jesus came to earth and how Baha'u'llah came to earth, as they were both born on earth yet both of their souls pre-existed in heaven before they were born on earth. When they were born, their soul united with their body. That is how they were different from ordinary humans, as the souls of ordinary humans are not pre-existent but rather they come into being at the time of conception.

    I do not know what verses you are referring to where you believe Jesus said that the return of the Lord to judge must be a 'return' from heaven. The soul of Baha'u'llah was sent by God from heaven. and His soul united with His body at the time of conception. The same exact thing happened to Jesus.

    As I think I said before, Jesus said that His work was finished on earth and He would no longer be in the world, so that tells us that the return of Christ cannot be referring to the same man Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago.
    (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

    To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being who will be born on earth. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality His soul descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.
     
    #419 Trailblazer, Sep 21, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  20. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    That is exactly what Jesus offerd to Peter and what I was also offering to you. "Christ" is the rock that is the foundation of the Church.

    "Christ" is the "Name" we come to God through. 2000 years ago Christ was given from the person known as Jesus.

    Christ means 'Annointed One'. So are you now seeing what is offered, that Jesus is Anointed of the Holy Spirit. It is the part of them that is not born from the womb, they are pre-existing. Humans are given a soul at birth. Maybe that will also give you thoughts as to why we have the story of the virgin birth.

    The station of Chirst is how God gives the Mesengers and that is how Christ is the first and the last.

    The flesh perishes, but Christ, the Holy Spirit lives before and lives on, the Alpha and the Omega.

    So we have all the Messengers who are born of the Holy Spirit. We have all humanity who are born of the Human Spirit. Man has to embrace the Spirit of Faith to be born again into the Holy Spirit.

    This explanation opens up many other meanings in the Bible and all the Holy Books.

    Regards Tony
     
    #420 TransmutingSoul, Sep 21, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
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